Strategy For Creating Hype
Lucy Werner, author of the books Hype Yourself and Brand Yourself, and founder of The Wern, a PR & design consultancy for startups has over 17-years of PR experience.
She is focused on teaching early stage businesses how to do their own publicity without spending a fortune.
In this episode, Lucy shares valuable tips on how to develop a strategy for creating hype in line with your brand strategy to promote what you are doing so you make maximum impact. She also shares steps towards building a brand strategy based around your values. We discuss:
- Strategies for creating hype for your business
- Insights and ideas on how to pitch a story to publications you want to collaborate with
- How she helps clients create their personal brand — the process & strategy
- The importance of values, which shape everything as you build your brand
- Collaborating with like-minded business people to increase your impact
- The value of email marketing in business
Lucy Werner: If for any story or product or service, there are hundreds of places that you could pitch it. And that's when it becomes overwhelming because you just like you just sort of almost spread yourself too thin. So that's why I kind of say to people, you know, set yourself a goal for the next three months or the next six months.
Shireen Smith: Hello, and welcome to the Brand Tuned podcast, which discusses all things brand related, including the essential trademark and IP dimension. I'm your host, Shireen Smith, IP lawyer, Brand Manager, and author of Brand Tuned the new rules of branding strategy and intellectual property.
Before the episode begins, I just want to mention the Brand Tuned accreditation course, which is in the pipeline, it will cover how to create a brand strategy, taking account of intellectual property as it arises during the process brand protection considerations impact the choice of names or other brand identifiers. So to make better branding decisions, register your interest brandtuned.com the link is in the show notes. Hello, and welcome to the Brand Tuned podcast. My guest today is Lucy Werner, who's the founder of the one a PR and design consultancy for startups. Lucy, welcome to the Brand Tuned podcast.
Lucy Werner: Hi, Shireen thanks so much for having me. So tell us a bit more about your background and what you do see? Yeah, so my background predominantly as in PR agencies, I've worked for some of the big London award-winning agencies and I've been in house and I set up my own consultancy about seven years ago, because I just could sort of see a gap in the market for early stage startups that couldn't necessarily afford the big agency fees. And so now my business is sort of split between the word consultancy where I do kind of PR work for people and then off the back of my first book, hype yourself, I have a DIY platform to help people basically learn how to do it themselves. And then along the way, the co founder of my children, Adrienne joined and he heads up the branding and design side, which is where you and I have kind of met in the past as well. So he kind of does the same thing. So it was sort of a little bit of a one stop shop, if you like to people who need to build their brand and then get themselves out into the world.
Shireen Smith: So you work predominantly with smaller businesses? Or what sort of size are they?
Lucy Werner: Um, yeah, I would definitely say I mean, they, they're typically on the kind of consulting side, they are on the sort of the VAT registered. So it's not like completely sort of beginning days, those are kind of the ones that I push on the hype yourself side. And typically, I go against that agency grain, I don't like to do retainers, I like to come along people, I like to hold their hand, show them the way, spend four or five months with them and then pack them off. So typically, it's not a huge company, because either they can then afford to do it, bring somebody in to do it, or, you know, they'll have an agency that they have, you know, full time.
Shireen Smith: Sure. Yeah. So when we were discussing this episode, I asked if we could sort of discuss how to have a strategy, you know, to create hype for a business, maybe that's creating a course I think you yourself are actually creating an online course. You know, how would you create your strategy around your brand strategy in order to, you know, promote what you're doing and make maximum impact?
Lucy Werner: So yeah, absolutely. I'm looking forward to kind of tucking into that topic area. And I think First things first is actually thinking what your business objectives are so in this instance, and the example you've given, it's great, that's an online course, we're trying to get sales for that online course. Whatever your business's your goals might be to attract investment, to get stuck in a retailer to get distribution, you really need to be super clear on what that goal, what you want the PR to be supporting that can really help shape it and stop us getting distracted. So if you want to be stalked by a distributor, for example, that's going to change which publications you might want to be in versus if you're trying to get a consumer buying an online course from you. And I think the biggest myth that I think there is around PR is that it's just getting into a newspaper. It's writing a press release and sending it out to a journalist.
And actually, that's one strand of PR, known as publicity with PR is everything you're doing, which is managing your public reputation. So me being on this podcast with you right now is PR for, for me and my business. And you've already allowed me to talk a bit about my book. So I'm already PR in myself just by being a guest on this podcast with you because I'm now being positioned alongside you like equally, both of us, we are tapping into each other's audiences when we co promote this episode together.
And I think people ignore things like podcasts or online talks, or being featured in somebody else's newsletter, and they think, oh, it's all about getting a journalist. So actually, I would say, after your business goals, and making sure that your PR aligns with that the next bit of your strategy is looking at your customer and where they're playing, whether that's a b2b or a b2c customer. And then it's about taking, I always get people to design what I call immediate Mind Maps almost throw it down on a piece of paper, which events are they going to, are they in co working spaces, do they go to awards, which podcast they listen to which online blogs, where it all down on a piece of paper, and then start the connecting steps. So if they're listening to podcast, picking a three to five podcasts that you think are a good fit, listen to them start to get a feel of the type of guests that they have an approach them, for some people speaking on a podcast is terrifying they're quite heavily to sit and listen, but they don't want to do that. So maybe writing is your thing.
I really like platforms such as medium, because they have different medium publications on less and medium is a US based blog if you don't know it, and you can actually write an article yourself, pop it in your drafts. And then you can find publications or medium to pitch to and that's really useful if you have a very specific segments, such as marketing, or thought leadership or wellness, parenting, whatever your area is, there's a title on there, if they then publish your article, and they all those titles have submission forms on there, it's exposing your writing to a much broader audience very quickly, which is ultimately what it's all about in order to, you know, grow our sales, it's about growing our, our audience.
Shireen Smith: Sure I think obviously, it goes right back to your strategy in terms of your brand, how, what's the brand idea? How are you going to win, I guess, and then developing some objectives around how you're going to achieve your, you know, your goals. So say you decide that you want to be known as accessible, having an accessible simple course. And therefore, your audience might be I don't know, small businesses. So how do you then translate that and you want to attract a following for your course? How do you then translate that into deciding exactly which what to do in terms of promoting yourself, your podcasts, but small businesses that help businesses to develop their business might be one.
Lucy Werner: I always liken it to, if you imagine that you were almost like a WPP creative agency. And you think about all of the different divisions. So I would be the PR division, if you like, somebody else might be marketing, somebody else might be legal, somebody else might be finance, and HR because if somebody is a small business owner, and they are interested in PR, there's a good chance, they're also going to take my recommendations for other service based businesses, for small business. So actually partnering with other people, building relationships with other people that are a complimentary service. And having you're kind of unofficial WPP agency of other people is actually quite a nice way to do it. So it's interesting when you're saying about the word of accessible, I think there are, I think there's some experts who are very accessible. And I think there's some who are very kind of if you want any of my advice or tips you have to pay for me. And so I think it's just making sure that your brand aligns with those other people.
And I think it's the same even when you're saying yes to a podcast, it's always good to look at the other guests and think if I was on a panel with these other guests, would this fit with my brand, or would I be the odd one out? Or you know, on the flip side of that, is this person being very inclusive? Do I actually do you need to give up my seat on this podcast and put somebody else forward? That does a similar thing to me that I think deserves that, that opportunity? And so yeah, I think kind of partnering with other people here, your unofficial board would be my answer to that. And because also, then, you know, there's that opportunity to even develop that relationship further and have referral or affiliate relationships with them. And I know for a fact that I do a monthly newsletter and whenever I list anything that I'm selling, nobody clicks on it. But when I click when I put articles or things to buy other services, people always get on my knee that is really good for other people. Not me. But I think it's because I'm aggregating that content. So they're trusting what I what I'm saying, amazing, they are following me as because, you know, I am catering to that early stage startup audience. Yeah.
Shireen Smith: So working in co working places is an ideal way to collaborate with like minded business people, isn't it?
Lucy Werner: Yeah. Do you know when I started out, I kind of sort of did a little experiment with myself. So I had co working spaces was one of them. And I definitely did. This is obviously pre pandemic, so you could actually do physical talk. So I did a lot of physical events, where I would do a lot of free talks to build my audience and network when I was starting out. And I did a lot of podcasts, I also went to a lot of female founder and women in business-type events. And I also, I think the thing that actually worked, the hardest for me was putting on my own event. And obviously, I know that most people are interested in speaking to journalists. So for my first event, I pitch how to pitch to journalist event, and I invited three journalists that I wanted to pitch to, to be on my panel.
So my favourite publication is courier magazine. So I invited a journalist and Courier magazine to be on my panel. And six months after that, she invited me to be on a courier panel. And actually, I still get new business leads from doing that event now. You know, two years later. So I would definitely say if there's a publication or a place that you want to be in building an authentic relationship with them, and taking that time to nurture and develop, it is a really great way to go about it. Typically, with promotion, it's not an overnight win. So I always think as well, it's about getting your product, right, figuring out what promotions working and then kind of rinsing, repeating it so that you can keep doing that cycle. For even whether it's traditional, or very digitally-led promotion. I think you can never start too soon. And I still see stuff appearing six, nine months, a year later from pictures, you know, a year ago.
Shireen Smith: Really?
Lucy Werner: Yeah, definitely. So it's always you're never, you're never not launching, you're always launching, it's not like you have this one moment. It's, and you know this because you've got, you know, tick, you've got leap two books, how many books have you got now?
Shireen Smith: Yeah, three.
Lucy Werner: Three, this is your third. So you know, is that you're always promoting you kind of always promoting your book, in a way.
Shireen Smith: Yes, yeah. It's all very time consuming, I guess, to identify publications and to know who what you want to actually achieve by once you've identified a publication even and are there any sort of tips you've got for tackling that batte?
Lucy Werner: No, I have the same battle for myself. And for my own clients, it is time-consuming. And especially when you're pitching out a story, you know, you could spend a whole day pitching and maybe a handful will reply that's not unusual. I guess. That's why you for any story, or product or service, there are hundreds of places that you could pitch it. And that's when it becomes overwhelming because you just like you just sort of almost spread yourself too thin. So that's why I kind of say to people, you know, set yourself a goal for the next three months or the next six months. You know, I'm going to try and get one podcast a month, or I'm going to try and do one talk a month, or this is the one publication I really want to be in. Because with any print publication, even like with Courier, for example, there's an editorial team of, you know, 12-15 journalists, you need to figure out who's the right one which section you want to be in, and then take your time to nourish and build that relationship.
And I always sort of think it's good to have a sort of unofficial tiered lists, so maybe Korea magazine or Forbes or a TED talk is your tier one. And then maybe tier two is this something that's maybe a bit more mid-level. And then you might have a tier-three which are like this is, this is easy, this is a site that you they give you the questionnaire, you can just fill out the q&a and submit it, and they're pretty much likely to run it. And that's just good for SEO and to keep, you know, Google spiders, happy that there's content going out there inbound links to my website. So I would, I would kind of sort of, you know, dedicate your time against each of that. But yeah, the time saving one, typically, all entrepreneurs or business founders, solopreneurs, we're all time-poor, which is why I also think it's worth sticking to the thing that works best for you, if you're great at talking to the podcast, if you're great at writing, do the blog posts, if you love public speaking, people can really feel that energy, they can feel the enthusiasm, and we enjoy it when people are having fun. So if you don't, if you're hating using Instagram, for example, people can sort of sense that. So almost sort of thing. If you don't want to be on a certain channel, don't force yourself to do it invest in the time, either in the space that you want to be in, you can really show off your skills.
Shireen Smith: And how far in advance should you be planning your strategy for hype or so?
Lucy Werner: It's a really good question. If you are expecting to be in a long lead publication, like Vogue magazine, for example, that has a six month lead time, we have in PR what we call Christmas in July, actually, it's sometimes even in June now. So if you want to get even at the moment, I've just done a pitch for Courier magazine. So we're recording in December 2022, the pictures for the shopping page is not going to appear till May. So I'm pitching five months out to get a product included. So for a monthly magazine or BI monthly, you're looking at like five, six months in advance to be you know, on the month that you launch. Other magazines, if you're looking at a weekly, they might be working about six to eight weeks out. And then obviously online, even if you don't like now, I would say even for online, we're on Tuesday, the seventh of December today. So I would say if anybody came to me now that I'm still pitching for Christmas, I'd probably have given up by this point. So I would still even for online. I mean, that's more of a specific occasion. So that's already probably much going to be wrapped up. But I would already be looking at January New year, new you February half term, like those types of occasions already. And for travel, they're already looking at summer holidays, you know.
Shireen Smith: Okay.
Lucy Werner: So it just depends on how kind of consumer-based you are.
Shireen Smith: Okay, so when you're creating your brand, I mean, how do you help people, they come to you, and you help them with their personal brand. Tell me about how you might help someone.
Lucy Werner: Say if somebody kind of arrived, you know, on my doorstep, it depends if they're working with Adriana on the kind of the brand strategy and the visual or if they're coming to me, and they've already kind of got their, their brand, but maybe I'm just helping to really refine, I guess the communication messaging and their key messages it typically they will kind of come to me with that I've got a product or service to launch. And we will go through what the business objectives are, what the communication objectives are, what are the key messages how they describe themselves, then we will move into their press toolkit because you can't do anything without it. So making sure we've got photography, whether that's the product, or the founder, that there's a bio of the founder, and that there's a bio of the business, which in PR we call the boilerplate, which is basically a really jazzy term for your business bio, is because historically, press releases were copied verbatim. And the boilerplate was a bit about the business that never changed. It was on the printing press. That was that's why it's called that, so yeah you need a kind of a business bio for yourself, it is likely you will need a press release. And it might not be the thing that we use to pitch out but it's a good reference documents when I'm typically pitching to media or podcasts or whatever. I have a bespoke pitch in the email. And that press release is underneath so they can pick out information if they need it and then we would start to write a target hit list of who do we want to go after. And I would also sit and work with them on their pitch angles. So for any person, there could be maybe three to five different angles for how we're going to pitch that story out. So one might be business-related, one might be female founder related one might be a bit more human interest. So giving a bit of what I say showing a bit of ankle, showing a bit of your personality, it could be all different for every single person. So it's, it's hard to sort of summarize because it's obviously it's not a cookie cutter, and every single person and product and story is different. But in general, that there is a kind of a strategy piece and media toolkit piece. And then there's the bit where I go off, and I go really quiet, where I'm basically just on the actual pitching side. And like I said, that can take time to build momentum. And I think that's also another big myth with publicity is that you can defer get it and it comes overnight. And actually, it can take weeks and months.
Shireen Smith: Yeah. So if somebody is starting a new business, and they have no brand, do the two of you collaborate and help them?
Lucy Werner: Yes, we do.
So what can happen on that on the brand side is a journal work with them, we are right at the very beginning on their brand strategy, and you really work through the vision mission purpose piece of it, then he will move on to the visuals. And sometimes, we tried to stay away from them, because they're very complicated. We do sort of basic Squarespace websites, if they've made even to WordPress and web developers, it's a whole other world trying to stay out of that. And then sometimes, yeah, the button will be passed. And then I, I then count, once he's, he does the foundation work, and then I launched them. So actually, we wait, we wrote our books in the wrong order, we should have written brand yourself first, and then hype yourself because most people actually try and hype themselves before they really looked at their brand. They think I've got a logo, a logo and a colour palette, I have a brand. And actually, when you drill deep into that, you realize that they don't always know who they are, and what they're about, or they can't say it's distinctly and actually for PR purposes, you need that.
Sometimes startup founders are the worst. You know, the type who are like every three months have changed the business goals, or who the target audiences or what the objectives are, they're the worst ones to do PR for because I'm like you need to it has the messaging has to stay the same for six months minimum, otherwise, there is I cannot do my, my side of the job.
Shireen Smith: So it's actually I think it's often because you're responding to the market, you don't you might have an idea. But until you're out there, doing your thing, you don't really know how people are going to respond. And therefore, your strategy might well have to change. So maybe there needs to be I don't know, a year, or six months during which people are just working things out. And they need something very straightforward, malleable.
Lucy Werner: I think, to be honest if I was any business starting out, and I was time-poor, and cash poor, which we often are starting out, I would actually go all-in on email marketing. And the reason I say that over, it's not that I don't value what I do for PR is the only way I've actually built up my own business. But because I know how to do it, it is easy for me. So I can do it day in day out.
But there isn't, there is not the financial metrics to measure the value on PR like that is for say, digital marketing or Facebook ads, where you, you can physically see how much you're putting in and what you are getting back. It's much, much harder to track. I definitely think you do need to think about brand and how you're positioning yourself. If you're Googling yourself, you know you have a personal brand. So it's 100% important to control it but I do see this sort of dangerous somebody curating a lovely Instagram feed, for example, or a slick website. And they spend all their attention on creating beautiful photos for Instagram. But they're not actually collecting any of that audience data or having a direct relationship with them. And we see it when you see all the memes going around to like when Facebook and Instagram sort of have their annual outage or like everybody suddenly giving a buy thing like see I told you this is why you needed email marketing this but you know, the reality is, we don't own our customer data. We're only engaging with them on social media channels. So it is important to try and own a piece of your own customer data. So for me, I would say all roads at the beginning should lead to your email marketing. And you can use PR as a free tool to do that with guest posts or no if you know that that's your objective. Then every time you're doing a podcast, make sure you sign up to my monthly newsletter. Whatever your call to action is you can bring get through every time you're doing your promotion. But I think it's the bit that people ignore because they think oh, I don't like opening newsletters myself, or I actually only like Instagram or I only go on LinkedIn, it's all fine. But at some point, you know that those can disappear. And you need to have a backup.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, very true. So talking about ownership and things do talk about IP to people who come to, you know.
Lucy Werner: I tell them to read your book, and we will talk to them on a very, on a very top line level. In our book we mentioned as a few ways you can check, you know, the name of your business, obviously, you don't need to be too worried about the court the incorporation name on companies house, which is what some people really panic about. And you're like, that's just, nobody's even going to see that in the public domain, it's fine. Like, that's okay. Typically, most of the time, when people are coming to us, they've already created a product name, it's very unusual for someone who's come to us without a product name. So we are normally a bit safer in that part.
Shireen Smith: Yeah.
Lucy Werner: But I have, I have sometimes had some crisis, PR calls of people who has nothing to do with us on the branding side to then come to me because they've got into a legal scrape, because they have adopted a name, inadvertently, and it normally is, and I do think, in general, the business world can sort of fire off a warning shot. And that is, is normally a lot, but for some of us that can even the warning shot can be quite terrifying.
Shireen Smith: The name is so important to make sure you've cleared, can use without because everything you're doing is promoting a name, or use your own name, it's a lot simpler.
Lucy Werner: But as actually part of the reason, I actually just called it the work. So I'm Lucy Werner, quite often just called Word or the word. And it was just a nickname. So when I incorporated my company, that was it. And then I regretted it, because actually when you're trying to spell out the word to people on the phone for an email address, it's quite tricky. But actually, from an SEO perspective, it's great.
Shireen Smith: Yeah.
Lucy Werner: And it's just sort of kept.
Shireen Smith: And it's distinctive, it's, yeah, it stands out.
Lucy Werner: I think it's why we typically, there is a bit of a joke in the communication as well, though, that all the PR and advertising and marketing agencies will named after the owners. But, yeah, I mean, that is the safest way it is my own name, we've actually started to trademark some of our programs where, you know, we've got a bit more I guess, I guess we're trying to have more ownership of it. And actually, I was really surprised when I bought hype yourself out that there wasn't more around hype yourself.
Shireen Smith: Yeah.
Lucy Werner: You know, out there. So we kind of got some UK, stuff sorted around that. I'm kind of like, oh, somebody could compete still in the US. And that may happen. But for now, we're safe. And you know, I'm focusing on a UK market, and I have a lifestyle business. It's unlikely I'm going for global domination anytime soon. But yeah, I think if you don't know anything about legal, it's actually quite scary.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, must be, especially because people, it's all quite confusing whether a domain name is enough or isn't enough. Traditionally, people assume if the domain names available, that's all they need to worry about or if a company is available to register so that there's a lot of pitfalls, I think, for the unwary around that. So what do you think somebody should do to should really focus on to build their brand in the desired way that they decide them? You know, in their strategy that they're all about? What would you really double down on as you know.
Lucy Werner: I think it is really thinking about you, right? In the very early steps of your brand strategy, you are looking at your values. And I think the values is that piece that people ignore, and they just think, Oh, that's a big business. You know, I don't need a big business strategy. But actually, when you know what your values are, it's going to really help you is what you can say yes to what you should be saying yes to what you might need to say no to, particularly when it comes to as your business grows. You might be invited to do brand collaboration, you can really think about like, does that brand align with, with the values of my business. And it also helps shape but which podcast which events which workspaces, because there will dip you know, some co working spaces can be very corporate, some co working spaces can be very creative. Oh my gosh, yeah, I mean, the original co working space. Exactly. 100%. And there's neither of those that are right or wrong. And it's, you know, it's interesting I, I'm not gonna talk too much about this. But yeah, I did an exercise where there's a group that you and I are both part of on Facebook, where I was asking for feedback on my book covers, and I got really torn apart and then I realized, and I actually realized that that's not my audience. That's not who I typically attract as an audience.
Shireen Smith: Why is that, they’re business people aren't they?
Lucy Werner: They are business people, but I think they I don't think I think we typically attract to the creative entrepreneur type. When you look at our, our wider customers, they're normally consumer-facing, are there service-based businesses that are really focused on consumer. We have worked with b2b as well. But I think their b2b was more of a quirky personality. And I think in general like when you look at that group is probably majority quite corporate b2b. So to them, my book is a complete eyesore, because that's not the sort of thing that they would want to pick up and read. And you, and I had to sort of take a step back and be like, actually, when I'm asking for feedback on my business or for development, it should be with the right audience that share the same values and want to be in the same space as you.
So I think that's why going back to the values, it can shape everything. Because I think, especially if you're starting out, and you're seeking advice, you need to be seeking advice from people who you aspire to be like, not just any stranger on the internet that you kind of thrown together in a space, you think, Oh, they might be able to help me it, it might be they're completely the wrong fit, and then steer you down the wrong path.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, that is, that's a really good point about brand values. Although it can be really difficult for people to understand what you mean values is just such a big sort of generic term.
Lucy Werner: Yeah, I mean, actually, I would always say if you really struggled to define your brand values, he would get you to ask you know, your parents, or your best friend, or your partner or people who work alongside because they will often see values in you that you don't see in yourself. And so it can be quite a for British people. It's disgusting to go and out, ask, you know, for public feedback, very worthwhile exercise.
Shireen Smith: Yeah. So just to finish off Lucy, is there a brand do you particularly admire? And if so, why?
Lucy Werner: And so one of the ones that we love, I say we because we mean I do and kind of sometimes we pull out different answers, but this one comes up together quite a lot, is actually who gives a crap toilet paper?
Shireen Smith: I love the toilet paper and their whole approach.
Lucy Werner: Yeah. And I think there's, there's a few reasons why I love it. One, because they really do things differently, they are using a household product that hasn't really been innovated in years, we all need to use it. And typically, you know, when you think about supermarket toilet, well, you can probably actually visualize the puppy, the pipe, like the kind of the peach, the perforated pattern on it. And they've just come out with these, like really wild and wacky paper wrapping, so their toilet rolls, it's a subscription base, so you don't end up with all this plastic around it. They do loads of charity work affiliated with it. So you sort of feel like you are doing something for the greater good. And obviously, they know their target audience. So whilst they know they're kind of aiming at families or creative types, so quite often in our most recent books, they come in huge boxes and like 56 rolls or something. When we undid the cardboard box, there was a huge mural inside for you to colour in. So it was suddenly you know, as we're all in lockdown was like, What the hell are we going to do is again, we'll order some toilet roll from them, and we've got a fun activity. And you know, quite often I see friends you actually collect the papers off the toilet roll and do things like that. Actually, they did this hilarious thing recently where the pop star Harry Styles did a photoshoot with Dazed magazine and he was in all this flamboyant clothing as he is. And they kind of did this newsjacking social media piece and they were like, I think Harry style has actually been taking influence from our packaging so they had a photo of Harry Styles in the days magazine photoshoot next to different wrappings of their festive toilet rolls to show that he was stealing their style. And I just thought it was so fun and playful and tapping into the zeitgeist without really costing them anything. It was such a nice shareable piece of content. And yeah, and it's basically a bog roll you they make a book well fun and creative and you've got people talking about it on a podcast, you know, you're doing well.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, that reminds me to order some more from there we go.
Lucy Werner: We are not affiliated on this show.
Shireen Smith: Well, actually, I've I find that ordinary loo rolls are far too thick. And I prefer those because it is thinner in a way.
Lucy Werner: Yeah, she'll be looking for sponsorship from you next who gives a crap.
Shireen Smith: Well, thank you very much, Lucy. Thank you for having me. Bye. Bye.
Shireen Smith: If you enjoyed this episode, please do tell a couple of people about it and sign up to the Brand Tuned new newsletter over at brandtuned.com the link is in the show notes. Thank you and bye!