Is IP a Constraint on Creativity?

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Stephen Willard is a graphic designer and former art director who moved into employee benefits communications and now runs his own company EMBLAZE a workplace engagement company that specialises in delivering high energy experiences to employees.  

Show Notes

In this episode, we discuss how IP tends to be regarded as a luxury, rather than as something essential, and how Stephen has picked up his knowledge of the subject during his career. We cover:

  • Brand identifiers and the creative process
  • The rationale of changing brand identifiers
  • What the brand is — how a brand can be recognized
  • Stephen's experience in designing a logo — the elements to take into account
  • Why use of symbols is rare when it's an effective way of being remembered
  • The extent to which law is a constraint on creativity
  • Designing for a regulated industry

LinkedIn: Stephen-willard
Twitter: sjwbranding
Instagram: @stephen.j.willard

[email protected] 

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Shireen Smith: So, welcome back to the Brand Tuned Podcast, Stephen. This time, I wondered if you…we could talk a bit about Intellectual Property and Branding, because you did a three-year course in graphic design. And so, I'm really interested to hear what training, if anything, you received as a graphic designer in IP.

Stephen Willard: I mean, that…yeah. When I look back at when I…when I studied graphic design, this…it was…when I look back at that world, it was…it was a very primitive world. We were still kind of sketching, typography, lots of layouts, the printing industry itself was still using things like plates and film. And a lot of that is, today's is now quite digital. So, the concept of brand was very much seen as…seen through the eyes of a logo, brand manifested as a logo. And back then, because advertising wasn't as democratized as it is nowadays, branding was very much for the big brands. So, the likes of McDonald's and Coca Cola, and even Apple back then, were seen as iconic brands, and that was the very essence of IP. So, we never… we never really got into IP in…in any great detail other than ensure that you have an identifiable, unique logo to represent your…your…your entity.

Shireen Smith: Okay. Did you cover copyright? Because I would imagine that's much more something that all graphic designers need to know.

Stephen Willard: Yeah, it's…it was…it was something that was an awareness of. I mean, I would say personally, that I picked up on those cues through my own pursuit through…through reading books, and other resources. Again, that…there was…there was an awareness, but it was not…never something we were tutored in, which is quite interesting, because now when I look at…look at the my, myself, my creative peers, you can see how without that routing, an IP…IP has always become a secondary measure. Whereas I know through your work, you always talk about it as IP is the starting point and not the afterthought. So…So yeah, it was…it was…Yeah, it…certainly today, whether it…whether today, it's something that's…that's within the learning materials. I'm not really sure. But it is saying wasn't back then.

Shireen Smith: Yeah, I was really surprised actually. Read…researching my book, I discovered that marketers, branding, brand managers, designers; none of these are actually trained in IP at all. At most, there might have a couple of hours lecture. You know, somebody comes in, and it's obviously very variable, the quality of that. And yet, yes, it's…it's absolutely intrinsic to brands, because what you're doing when you create a brand is creating brand identifiers, names, and symbols. And these are all protected by intellectual property. So, they're the value, you know, the assets that a successful brand will have. So, you know, if you're creating something, and assuming that you'll deal with the legal separately, you may actually end up creating something that's not as good because it's not legally distinctive enough, like for example, with a name using something more generic. That.

Stephen Willard: Yeah.

Shireen Smith: But you can do the equivalent of that with other brand elements as well if you're not aware of what the legal requirements are. So, basically, you…did you receive any training in any of your jobs because you had branding jobs, you were head of creative and so…

Stephen Willard: Yes, yeah, sure. So, as I started to move into a consultancy role; consulting with…with…with brands at board level. It wasn't until then that it was, I understood it was necessary for me to…to…to be versed to a degree in…in IP matters and advise accordingly.  So, I enrolled on to… training resource with the IoD. This was many, many years ago now, and some other management consultancy training; kind of ad hoc, as in when it came up. But I still very much felt, even when consulting at…at exact level, I still felt that I was not speaking to a converted audience, it was still a matter that was seen as…as either a luxury item, or something that wasn't essential to the direction of the project. It's only…it's only very recently. And I can think of the last few projects we've worked on, where I've had the opportunity to speak to a company directly about IP, prior to getting excited about logo designs, prior to looking at domains and purchasing 50 different domains and all the rest of it, and actually talk about that. And in my…in my language, I talk a lot about like brand strategies, marketing strategies, is all very common, but I know you talk about IP strategies. And even that, to me is a very new…a new concept. So, even though…while I feel I'm kind of on the right path, I'm still very much learning through experience.

Shireen Smith: Sure, I think, you know, you're obviously much more knowledgeable, than most designers, in IP. But what I'm trying to understand is how people pick up that knowledge, you know. If…if organizations aren't training their teams, then it's left to people in their own initiative, I guess to…to learn is it?

Stephen Willard: It…It is, it is. Agency environments, I've been working in agency land for 15…15-20 years now. And it's… they are created environments. You live and die by your…by the quality of your creative. That just simply isn't the…the resource will focus to talk about IP and in any great detail.

Shireen Smith: So creative is, is what? When you're…when you're creating a brand, what is creative?

Stephen Willard: Creative…so I always see creative as…it's a concept that is more accessible than…than people think there's…there's…there's often this kind of view out there that you're…you're either creative or you're not. You've either got this raw talent within you or you have an…I'm not creative, will outsource that to a creative. But I very much see creativity as breaking up existing formations and reassembling them in a slightly different order. And that…that to me is every brief we do, we look at an existing construct, we disassemble it, and we reassemble it in a…in a different form. So…so yeah. Yeah.

Shireen Smith: So, let me understand. Somebody comes to you for branding, then they've got some vision for their new offering. And, so what…what do you then do to create a brand for them?

Stephen Willard: That…the…what we've been doing for the last 10 years or so, it's certainly approach I've been taking the last 10 years or so, primarily working within financial services, particularly the pension space…investment space is to actually…Actually, I don't do…I certainly don't spend much of my energy on competitor analysis, I always go lateral. And I look at complementary offerings that are perhaps taking a slightly different approach, and what can we learn from that? So, for example, we were …we were looking at…we were working with a pensions company a few years ago. Really looking at a digital transformation. And it made complete sense to me to look at who, what, who in the ISO space, we're offering the best user experiences. Not deferring to the pension space to see who was offering the best user experience. So… so, we just take that lateral path. Sometimes we look at things, we've looked at event companies for sports brands, while helping financial services companies, so it's always the lateral view for me.

Shireen Smith: So, this is to create their websites and things, is it?

Stephen Willard: Yeah, it's…Yeah, it's…it’'s the…the end output. The ultimate output will always be something like a portal, a website or sales collateral, something like that. But it's, it's the strategy that gets us to the output.

Shireen Smith: Right. So, you're…when you're designing a logo, how do you decide what to…what to create in terms of that logo.

Stephen Willard: It will be built around who the end consumer is. That's…that's…that's the non-negotiable.

Shireen Smith: The end consumer? How do you mean?

Stephen Willard: Yeah, who will be consuming this brand?

Shireen Smith: So, say you've got legal services, could be consumed by lots of different people. So how does that impact what you create?

Stephen Willard: So, we drill that down a little bit more, which this…this particular legal firm, where are their specialty is? What kind of people are they looking to appeal to, and we’d look at the behaviors and the tastes of that particular demographic. And then we'd look at the kind of brands they consume. And we take inspiration from that. And that's how you then find yourself looking at the likes of Deliveroo or Netflix or whoever for inspiration, as opposed to Allen and Overy, or Deloitte or, or whoever. So, yeah, that's…we always take that…that lateral view, we build it around the consumer. And that's why we tend to, whenever when it comes to presenting concepts, we always get that energy, you know, you coming up with something different here, this feels fresh, this feels new. It's because we've…we've taken the conversation elsewhere.

Shireen Smith: Right? So, are you creating a logo that will last forever? Or do you regard it as something that is likely to be changed, say, in 10 years’ time? How…what is your view of these identifiers that you're creating?

Stephen Willard: That's, that's a really good question. I guess in the last kind of 18 months or so my, my understanding of forever has…has changed. But when I…I…we always go for the timeless look. We always go for the logo that will withstand disruption. If we look at really prominent logos, the likes of BT Virgin logos like that, they really stripped back their identity…their…their logo marks. So, that they're very simple vector formats that you can stick on a movie trailer, and an airplane tail, a brochure, whatever. So, we always go, we also go for that timeless look. What will withstand disruption? We're less, as time has passed, less and less concerned about logo clearance zones, tampering with colors, and all the rest of that. I think the logo, if it's…if it's built-in a timeless format, it's…it…It can be organic. So, its advantage. And I think we've seen that with many of the world's most successful brands. Gone are the days of reinforcing the same logo, the same color, the same format over and over again, that…to me, that's old money.

Shireen Smith: Well, a lot of very successful brands like Apple or Nike have a strong visual. And yet, you know, most brands just use a plain sort of logo. Why is that? Why are so few brands using symbols when it's a way of being remembered?

Stephen Willard: Yeah, what…why are they…Why are they not using symbol?

Shireen Smith: Yes. Why? Why isn't that more commonplace to use symbols? Is it more difficult for a designer to actually design a symbol?

Stephen Willard: Yeah, yeah, there was…I mean, there was a trend, I guess the trend is still going to feel for brands to come up with words or to name their brands, using universal language. So, using nondescript words, and I imagine this, this kind of syncs your hymn sheet in terms of IP protection. So, coming up with think of Air Miles. Something like that doesn't translate globally. But IVR styles are kind of nondescript, and that's why we've got Deliveroo and all the rest of it. So, I think that's possibly why a wordmark is quite important because it can be global, it can be recognized wherever. I think also, I think advertising is just very noisy. We're just seeing so many images, and symbols. I definitely think brand visual identity protection is not what it used to be back in…back in 10 years ago or so. Graphic Designers would be very fearful of breaching brand guidelines and, and you'd even alert brand managers to any breach of guidelines you've seen elsewhere in society. Whereas nowadays, there's symbols and shapes and just used everywhere and there's just so much noise that I think a wordmark is, is really useful.

Shireen Smith: But so would having something like an Apple, the…the Apple logo, because once you become well known by it, it's a real shortcut to recognition.

Stephen Willard: Yeah…Yeah…

Shireen Smith: You know. So why are other brands missing that opportunity to have another way of being recognized? I mean, yeah, example, I could only recognize this law firm for a while. That has stopped using a tiger. But I would go on their site, Osborne Clarke.

Stephen Willard: Yeah, I know.

Shireen Smith: And go on their site and see this tiger and I would know it was them. And then now they've got some…some nondescript thing. They've changed it. But I thought that was so distinctive to have this tiger. So, you know, why? Why has…have they eliminated it? I guess somebody persuaded them? It didn't look good. I don't know. I really don't know. But why are more people not using that identifier possibility that a visual gives?

Stephen Willard: Yeah, it's…it could…it could be the…the malleability to changing forms that…that could be a factor. I can…that there are a number of brands that would, I can think of one that…that we've…we've helped guide through the last few years or so that actually…that…that…100 years are so old. Their logo contains some kind of…ornate image, which could be a shield or something with Latin text or whatever. Very… very…very kind of regal, very commanding, but quite old-fashioned in today's terms. So how…how do we update that, but keeping those…those notes in there, I know, football teams, football clubs have gone through that transitional process to make their brands more global. I can think of the likes of Arsenal and Everton who really changed their logos from the marks to really kind of simple designs. So, I guess…I guess my comment on that would be, I mean, I'm still very much on the side of pairing the two; the word mark and the logo mark. Better still, if you confuse the two, I think you're onto…onto a winner.

Shireen Smith: So, what…who determines what's fashionable? Is it sort of basically that the less you have in something, the more design quality there is? In other words, the more simple the better is like writing simply, I mean, how…how does…you know simplified fashions? Who decides what looks good? My guess?

Stephen Willard: I think, yeah…I think we follow…follow the eyeballs. So, going back to…going back to your law firm, and we talked about perhaps there's a specific set of services and a target demographic and what are they looking at? Where are their eyeballs? It's, it's just looking, it's one of the things they're looking at and taking inspiration from there. So, at the moment, things like TikTok and Reels, and really kind of amateurish video editing. I mean, that in a complimentary way, is very in. User-generated content is very in. So, what does that look like? How would that manifest as a logo? 20 years ago, we'd be looking at perhaps print advertising, media, that kind of thing. What does that look like? So, it's wherever the eyeballs are, is where to take…where the trend will naturally form. So yeah, I think it's…it's never a case of creating something beautiful, build it, and they will come. I think it's… it follows the eyeballs.

Shireen Smith: Yes. And yet this research that the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute carried out shows that distinctiveness, I… having identifiers that people recognize. That is how brands are recognized. And that's what lasts rather than how one brand differs from another. So, you’d think that people wouldn't tamper with the identifiers because they don't necessarily determine whether you look fashionable or don’t look fashionable. They're just part of your identity. You can still have very interesting, creative advertising and you know, other ways of being identified. Sort of surrounding…surrounding visuals, I guess. Because I find that, in branding, you get given a logo, and then you've got to use this, and you think, well, everywhere you go, how are you going to actually manifest what your brand should look like? And all you’ve been given is one little logo and maybe a color. Whereas, you know, you need more than that to have…to be able to identify yourself on social media, etc., rather than always just one little name logo. So, I think, you know, I'm just surprised that branding doesn't create more for people, know, instead of just giving people this one logo, and a color; which you can’t protect the color for.

Stephen Willard: Of course, of course. I think…I think in terms of changing your identifiers, I think I can see a legitimate rationale for doing that if perhaps, your audience, you're moving away from your audience. So, if you were to take, for example, like Marks and Spencer, or something like that, perhaps…perhaps that moving away from a certain audience, I can see the rationale for changing identifiers. But otherwise, you're…you're…you're sacrificing that equity you've built up over the years. So, it's…yeah, it wouldn't seem like a wise move for me. I mean, when we work with our clients, I'd say we're definitely on the same thinking as you; we build toolkits, we build packs, we build asset libraries. So, it is more, the brand is more than a logo. Yeah.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. Well, I'm…I’m really curious why, you know, why branding is…approaches everything in the way it does. Even though…really, what you're creating is intellectual property assets. So, it depends on what it is…what the brand is. But if you're on the supermarket shelf, then people are going to recognize you. Maybe they don't even know your name, you know. They, they recognize you by a certain look that your packaging has; whereas I don't know, in…in another area, maybe it's just the name that they remember, and they don't even remember what your logo looks like. But the thing is, you, you don't really necessarily know how people are going to recognize your brand. So, it could be that somebody associates it with one thing and somebody else with another. But what you want is to end up with something consistent that they're going to recognize over the years. So yeah, I think then, then you protect that. And I would never change somebody's name unless there was reasons like a rat nose or some really powerful reasons. And yeah, I come across branding people who just want to change the name, as if it's, you know, as if there's no equity there. Nothing. Just…

Stephen Willard: Consignia comes to mind.

Shireen Smith: Yes, exactly.

Stephen Willard: Yeah, and I think…I think going back to your original question, that is, perhaps it's because the grounding of a graphic designer isn't rooted in IP. It is rooted in marvelous creativity, and conceptual excellence. That's, that's what you're supposed to do. Yeah, and it's just, it's a lot more methodical than one may think.

Shireen Smith: So, if you're naming something, I mean, what…what's the approach? Were you taught to, to approach naming in a particular way? Or do people have different approaches?

Stephen Willard: Yeah, certainly not taught professionally. That's something I've picked up through…through business…through my own business dealings, working with clients organically, and working with…with entrepreneurs and business owners, understanding how they came up with their…their business ideas and product names. Yeah, and it's, it's only latterly I've…I've…I've intentionally engaged with…with resources to help me with that.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. So, what…what sort of ideas would you…would people generally need in order to?... I asked, because when I've worked with a designer, I remember, I asked this designer to choose six names, send me six names for a client.

Stephen Willard: Right.

Shireen Smith: Five of them were immediately knocked out just by doing the most basic trademark search. So, I thought, there must be some…some sort of thinking when you're choosing a name that is kind of common within the industry. So, you're choosing it on the basis of something like a differentiating proposition, maybe. So, you're more at risk of finding that actually, you've got a similar name to someone else.

Stephen Willard: Yeah. Yeah. It's…yeah, it's…it's…Yeah, it's…it's …it's just not an area that designers are creatively used to. It's…and it kind of your…your example there doesn't really surprise me. And I can see that being…yeah…the same across the industry. In terms of…in terms of our processes, it's…I would be honest in saying that it's not something that does come around easily. All the post-it notes on the wall and brainstorming sessions doesn't always come out with that…come up with that killer idea. It is a process of refinement. And then once you have a shortlist, it's…it is then doing the IPO searches. Domain searches are not really, if I also see this as a…as concentric circles, domain…domain names are very much an outer circle issue for me.

Shireen Smith: Yeah.

Stephen Willard: So yeah, yeah.

Shireen Smith: So, you tend to do your own searches of…how did you learn to do IPO searches? As a matter of interest?

Stephen Willard: Yes, so…so I’ve…over the years, I've attended various IPO webinars. I've been to a seminar. So, I then be on… on their mailing list. I've registered IP, myself, my own businesses, and also for clients. So, it's just a process that…that I've kind of learned as…as we've gone through. And I think…

Shireen Smith: So, you register for your clients do?

Stephen Willard: I…no. Because…because of the nature of our clients that they tend to be financial, professional services organizations, they tend to all have in-house compliance. So, it tends to be deferred. We're helping an insurance group register IP at the moment. They have…they have a legal team in-house. So, sort of, we take it to the point where we've done all of our due diligence, and then we can make a recommendation, which is then…yeah...moved on.

Shireen Smith: You’ve chosen a name, and... they…do know on what basis they're going to search it? Because that can be a problem if, say, you…you check the UK and then there's some problem in, I don’t know, Timbuktu.

Stephen Willard: Yeah.

Shireen Smith: I mean, do you lay the ground rules at the beginning when you're choosing a name as to which jurisdictions is going to be working for, or what.

Stephen Willard: So, so in the case of the Insurance Group, I'm thinking of right now, I put forward a detailed email to say, “these are the searches, these are my recommendations, this is what I think the IP is appropriate for. This is the result of my searches.” And then there's just an expectation that the…there's the expertise to take that forward. Or to…or to engage with…with somebody like yourself, Shireen. I can make that recommendation. I know…I know…my lane. I know…I know…where…where I belong, and where I do not belong. Because I think it’s a tricky matter.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. But the trouble is, you see that if you've already done so much work and created so much, and then it's knocked down, you've got to presumably go back to the drawing board. I mean, do you get paid again? Or how does it work?

Stephen Willard: I'm, I'm, I'm really kind of demotivational when it comes to branding. I'm, I'm the one there, the clients are raging, they want to see ideas, they're excited. And I'm the one there saying, you know, this is the process, you know, we need to do these checks. We need to research this, you know. Here's a little bit of this, you know, we…we present, we present very few ideas. When it comes to branding concepts, we present one concept or two maximum. That's because if you do, if your listening is of the highest quality, if you do your research, there should only be one answer from that particular agency. So, we always put forward what we call recommendations. We never do beauty parades or anything like that. So, yeah, and that, to me is the…is the right approach. I know, I know, throughout the creative industry, clients want to see value. They want to explore concepts, they want to feel part of the process, they want to see lots of ideas. but to me, that's very scattergun. I like to narrow it down. I like to take the stress off of the clients by saying, “this is what I recommend you do. If you agree. We'd like to take this project forward with you. If you disagree, then you disagree fundamentally with our agency, our philosophy. That's absolutely fine. We're not for you.” So that's the approach we take. We tend to, in terms of charging our work, we do tend to break it down into…into stages. So that the pre-branding work, the rollout work, and then strategy, and then there may be retained services thereon.

Shireen Smith: Is there any reason you don't actually work with legal? I mean, is there a way that you could work with legal at the same time so that you don't go down the road too much of choosing an identifier or a name that…is…hasn't got legs? I mean, people say, “oh, lawyers spoil the creativity.” I don't know. I'm not so sure I actually agree that having constraints within the creative process would stop creativity. Because quite often, you know, if I've got constraints, say of word counts, or I don't know, I've got to get something down to a minute. I feel that it ends up being better at the end, even though it feels at one and a half minutes, so I wish I didn't have to cut another half-minute out. But you do end up with something okay when you've got a constraint. So the law is just another constraint. But if you're aware of what that constraint is, then it can surely help the creative process.

Stephen Willard: I'm so with you. That's why I'm beaming with a smile. Yes, I…only yesterday, there was a…there was a video snippet from a…from a…from a so-called influencer on the internet. I saw, and he said, like, “creativity must start with a blank page.” I fundamentally disagree, fundamentally disagree with that. You need, you need constraints, you need frameworks, parameters, problems, legacies, you need those formal constructs to reassemble. It's like a game of Tetris to come up with something that's truly creative, and absolutely the legal. I mean, as I say, we work in financial services, so we're very used to our headlines, our copy, our creative, our infographics being scrutinized by compliance, very use to that. It's just another form of creativity. Certainly, it's the wrong attitude to think that that's something to be avoided or inhibits your creativity. Work…work with…work with compliances is absolutely my message and your…your end product will be stronger, and it will be better. I…I once…I once received a piece of advice from…from somebody who's quite successful in business, and he said to…”if you're thinking of starting a business, you should, you should build a business within a regulated industry. Because regulated industries mean that you have to operate to the highest possible standards.” And I can take that parallel and apply it to creativity. If you want to be really creative, go for somewhere, like financial services, where there are constraints, and you will be more…more successful.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So yeah, it's very interesting talking to you about this.

Stephen Willard: Likewise, yeah.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. I mean, I wonder how could things change so that some sort of training could be provided within, you know, marketing design, you know? Do you think that actually law is just so different that it's not possible for a designer to take an interest in it, even though, you know, it impacts their work?

Stephen Willard: Yes, sure. But when I…when I think back to when I…when I was learning about design, through… through…through education, you were…you were never…we were never taught to contextualize design as a business commodity, which sounds really cruel. But that's…that's…it often is…once you…once you…if you want to make a living through design somebody is…tends to be paying for that piece of creativity. So, an IP is…is a…is a crucial factor. And that's why I think a lot of creatives can find it difficult starting their career in…in the…in the creative industry, because they're very used to having this, “my creativity is my soul, I want people to buy into me and my creativity,” and actually the business world is quite ruthless. It's like, “no, it has to be in this color and this shape and this format and I need tomorrow for this amount of money”, and it can be quite difficult. So, I think it would be very, very useful for IP…brand an IP to be a module. Yeah…a core module in further education.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. Because otherwise, people will have gaps and knowledge. I mean, you've educated yourself, but somebody else may end up suffering a lot in order to…to pick up that missing piece of knowledge, because it can actually be quite dangerous for designers. I mean, I've known designers who, whose house could have been lost as a result of the problem they had. You know, one designer had designed something that their client had given them. They hadn't checked the copyright. And then, as they were the ones who…who were working with it, they were primarily responsible, and there's no [inaudible] and as personal liability, there was…they didn't have the benefit of limited liability. So potentially, their house was on the line. So, there's just so many ways in which lack of knowledge of IP can come back to bite you as, as a creative. And I'm just really surprised they're not equipped with the knowledge they need. And they've got to pick it up ad hoc as they go, you know.

Stephen Willard: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an alarming case study that…yeah, I, I echo what you're…what you're saying that there…there is…there are dangers, and there's this potential loss of value as well. You talk about businesses and acquisitions and all the rest of it. I mean, IP is extremely valuable in business. So yeah.

Shireen Smith: Right. So finally, what…your title is Chief Enchantment Officer. That's very unusual. Can you tell us about that? CEO as well, as what it…

Stephen Willard: I…Oh, how about that? Yeah, I kind of…I got to a stage of my life where I thought, “well, I don't think I'm going to get a job opportunity as a chief executive or CEO of a company that at this stage of my career, so I think I'll just make one up myself.” Yeah, no…I…yeah. It's…it's just one of those things. It's, I kind of thought to myself, “what do actually do here.” And that sounded great. And it gave me the title of CEO. And every so often, somebody mentions it to me and has a little bit of a dig at me about it, which I also think is quite, it's quite amusing. I’m quite happy with it.

Shireen Smith: Well, it’s very unusual. It stands out.

Stephen Willard: Yeah, but the enchantment is, is essentially what we offer. And yeah, I'm quite happy to be the chief of that, I guess.

Shireen Smith: Well, thank you very much indeed, Stephen, for taking the time to appear on the podcast.

Stephen Willard: It's been a real joy. Thank you for inviting me on.

Shireen Smith: So how can people get in touch with you?

Stephen Willard: I'm…I'm on LinkedIn. You can…you can contact me there or my email address is [email protected]. Yeah, if I've said anything of any use and anybody wants to take me to task or…or wants me to expand. I’m very, very happy…particularly young, young, young creatives, trying to make a start in the industry. Very, very happy to…to offer any support I can.

Shireen Smith: Thank you very much indeed.

Stephen Willard: Thank you. Bye.

Shireen Smith: Bye bye.