How Tom Gardner Built and Branded Multiple Businesses

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Joining us in this episode is Tom Gardner, a serial entrepreneur known for his analytical approach to branding and his success in launching several brands across different industries.

Show Notes

Tom shares his journey in branding, marked by a blend of scientific and practical approaches, emphasizing customer feedback and market testing from the very start. Gardner's experiences span from a B2C online platform for buying new cars to a legal tech startup, each with its unique branding challenges and strategies.

In this episode, we’ll also discuss: 

  • Branding Experience With A Consultant
  • Naming Process
  • Involving Branding Agencies
  • Business Funding
  • Next Startup Business
  • Filling The Gap In The Market
  • What Brand Means
  • Getting The Perspective Of The Market
  • His Current Ventures
  • Branding Philosophy And Strategies 

LinkedIn: Tom Gardner

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 Shireen: Hello, I'm Shireen Smith from the Brand Tuned podcast. And I've invited Tom Gardner to discuss his branding experiences with me. So, Tom, Hello, can you introduce yourself, please? 

Tom: Yes, certainly. So Tom Gardner, I'm a bit of a serial entrepreneur. I've developed and built about seven different brands and had a wide variety of experiences. So yeah, I think the most recent branding experience was last month. So it's an ongoing, ongoing project. 

Shireen: Okay, well, take me back to the very first experience you had what, what caused you to get branding done, because a lot of businesses just don't bother with it, they choose the name, they might get a logo done very cheaply, they don't really go through a branding process. So what made you actually decide what When was it that you first chose to have a branding experience. 

Branding Experience With A Consultant 

Tom: Also our first startup, we raised capital as seed funding and launched a tech business in the automotive space. So there was a b2c brand, an online platform to buy new cars. And having raised capital, we knew we had to take it seriously. And we had a bit of a joint approach, we started off with a really good consultant who took a lot more of a scientific approach to branding, which we really liked. He was very practical around trying to understand what you're building a business around, what are your customers looking for? Who are you competing with in the industry? And what are we we were an to engineers and an accountant. So we're quite analytical. And what we did quite early on was we went and tested a bunch of brand ideas with some potential customers, and the outfit favorite was actually voted as the best. So I think that was a very telling process where, you know, we, we didn't just have one bright idea and got emotionally attached to it and ran with it, we actually took a bit more of a boring mathematical approach, which worked out really well in the end. 

Shireen: So you picked the idea for what client type or.. 

Tom: No, the name of the brand. 

Shireen: Oh, the name. Okay, so yeah, so tested the name by asking what people thought of it. 

Tom: Yeah. So our consultant generated the.. 

Shireen: What was the name? 

Tom: Sorry, say that again? 

Shireen: What was the name?  

Tom: Carter. CARTER. Yeah. We were looking for a two syllable name that had the word car in it. And we really liked the feminine Callie. But that was taken by Carly Rae Jepsen, so we wouldn't have been able to compete on SEO. But we had a bunch of other really interesting and fun names that we really liked. But it was really important to us to get the voice of the customer in at that stage. And I think what was really important to us was not to get emotionally attached to something that we liked, and then find out that customers didn't like it too late. So that's why we wanted to bring in testing very, very early on. And shortly after that, with the same company, the same brand, we engaged with a branding agency to do a big branding campaign with us. And this was before we really built out our brand essence, our brand positioning statement, you know, all of those really good hygiene factors. And that was a very different experience. And it didn't end very well at all. 

Shireen: Let's go back first to what you had done for you apart from the name with your first brand. 

Tom: Ah, certainly. Yes. So we just saw what happened with the first consultant was a freelance consultant. He generated a bunch of name options for us, but at the same time built out some logo and contextual ideas of how the name would be used in context, which was really important because a list of words on a page versus how you capture them in a logo and a Brand feel is very different. So it was a really great opportunity for us to play with different ideas, rather be presented with one idea and say this is what I think you should be doing. So we ended up with colors, a brand logo, business cards, a brand guide. But it was very basic, because at that stage, we really just needed a logo and a color scheme to start building the app and start moving forward. We hadn't yet thought of across the bridge of doing brand awareness campaigns and big branding campaigns. 

Shireen: Can I find out why you actually started that business. Did you have any experience as a business owner before that? 

Tom: Myself and our two other founders had come out of another startup that wasn't our own. So that was a b2c insurance company that sold life insurance, and we had helped grow that business. And through that, we felt, you know, we had learned a lot about running a business growing a business raising capital, and we wanted to start our own business and found our own company. 

Shireen: Okay, so you, you found this, did you not sort of discuss what your positioning should be how you would differentiate Carter, or, you know, as part of getting the logo designed for you. 

Tom: We wanted, we knew that we were trying to make the whole process a lot more customer centric, and more user friendly, because Buying a car is very obscure, and there's a lot of stakeholders at play. It's a really terrible customer journey. And the three of us had found us, as founders had recently been through the car buying process for different reasons, and had different pain points. So we knew that had wanted to be approachable. That's why we liked the idea of having a name for it an actual human name, that was one of the options that we were very emotionally attached to. And I think, subsequent to that, when we started, we brought on a marketing manager later on, and then we started to really flesh out brand essence and personas and that kind of thing. So I think we we got lucky early on that our freelance branding consultant really took the time to listen to us and understand what we were trying to build, and try to capture that in the brand. 

Shireen: What made you choose that actual consultant, how did you come across them? 

Tom: It was a friend of a friend. 

Shireen: What so you just asked around who can help us with our branding? 

Tom: Yeah. And he had done; we saw his portfolio of work. And it was pretty pragmatic. I think it wasn't, he wasn't building brands to try and win awards. He was trying to build brands that fitted the brand purpose, which we felt was very important for us. But at that stage, a lot of it came down to price. Like we didn't have the time or the money to shop around and talk to big established agencies. We, we needed to do the best that we could with what we had. 

Naming Process 

Shireen: Right. And did he get the trademark searches done for you? Did you even know about the need for trademarks? 

Tom: Yeah, we did go through that process. And we separately met with a lawyer on that. Yeah, we weren't conscious of that. But we met with a separate IP lawyer independently of that. But we did a lot of searching online around URLs and international businesses and that kind of thing. But I think it was less around conflicts of trademarks, and a lot more around SEO and web presence. 

Shireen: But so you had already chosen the name Carter when you went to a lawyer, or.. 

Tom: We’d already chosen the name Carter. 

Shireen: Well, that was lucky for you that. 

Tom: It was available for it was very lucky. Yes. 

Shireen: Right. Okay, so you went with that for how long before you had another branding person involved? 

Involving Branding Agencies 

Tom: We've probably been operating and building the business for about six to 12 months. And then we raised more capital. And then it was time to think about a proper brand campaign to really get the brand out there. And we wanted more than what our freelance friend could deliver us. And another friend of ours had used a brand agency to do a big rebranding of their b2b printing business. And he couldn't speak more highly of this consulting company and the work that they had done. So I took that personal referral, we actually shopped around we got pictures from three different brand agencies. And the process was quite amazing, the amazing for maybe a lot of the wrong reasons the amount of work that the agency is invested in The project before they even met with us. It was scary because you feel so emotionally backed into a corner to disagree with what they've done or to give them feedback on what they've done because you've seen how much they've invested in it. And instead of pitching options, they pitch one idea. And it's like this is this is the idea. We've brainstormed this for weeks. And this is the campaign and these are the colors. And it just That's not how we operated. It's not how we thought. So we felt at a very difficult emotional journey, because it was very emotionally charged. It was very dramatic. It was very creative. But it lacked that pragmatism and practicality in the process. And we felt very backed into a corner a lot of the time. 

Shireen: Are they all changing your colors? I mean, did you not think you've already got colors, why were you changing them? 

Tom: Yes. And I think that's where a lot of it they they a big position change was trying to break the mold. And I think that's one of the challenges that you're often faced in a business is, are you trying to fit in and look safe, like everyone else in the industry, especially when someone's buying a car from you, or you're trying to look like a distinctive disrupter, who's trying to shake things up. That's a conscious choice. And for a lot of the agencies that we saw, they wanted to win awards with these amazing creative, disruptive campaigns. But that's not what the business strategy was. And I think for for different clients with different needs, sometimes that's good enough, if you've got a profitable business, and you're looking for some renewed energy, and you've been around for 30 years, go for it. But when there's a lot at stake, and you're a young startup, we want it to be a little bit more thoughtful and rigorous around how we made those calls, and at least explore options and diverge before landing on this as the video. 

Shireen: So how did you choose them between the options? 

Tom: We didn't we scrapped all of them. Just we decided not to outsource it. And we hired our own marketing manager to run it for us. 

Shireen: Okay, so did you continue using the colors you'd started with? 

Tom: We, we kept the core brand essence. And we ran a very well structured internal brand strategy process that was led by our marketing manager. So she was also very scientific, and came with that kind of, I think a lot of the marketing world has moved towards a lot more, you know, digital AV testing, and that kind of thing. And we found someone who thought that way. So we ran a much more. We tested a lot of things with digital marketing to see what resonated with the market, because you can do that with 1000s of people every day, and then build out a campaign out of that to see what's resonating and make sure that that brand campaign will actually work. So we really liked that approach, because it was a bit more proven. And may it might have been a bit slower, and it may not have been as creative. But I think we we we knew that we were spending money on something that would resonate with the market. 

Business funding 

Shireen: How did you know to get funding for your business? Did you get help from people to sort of create the business plan and such like so that you would be able to get funding? 

Tom: Our backgrounds, we all started myself and my two business partners started working together at McKinsey and Company, the big international strategy business. So we did a lot of work with a lot of different businesses. And then when we joined and helped scale, the first startup that wasn't our startup, we got exposure to a lot of capital raising processes and debt raising processes through that. So I think that's why the second time around, we felt a lot more empowered because we had paid our school fees, using someone else's money, so to speak. 

Shireen: Okay, so what happened to that business, then? 

Tom: It's done extremely well. We eventually had to pivot and start buying dealerships because we realise that car dealerships was so run so traditionally poorly, that you actually had to buy a dealership and change how the dealership worked. So the we we've bought, I think it's 10 to 12 different dealerships now all under the Carter holding banner as a brand. And they've been totally overhauled and shorter. They're constantly winning Dealer of the year because of good customer service and the digital presence and leveraging a lot of digital, you know, capabilities to give your customers a great experience. So that yeah, the business has done very, very well. 

Shireen: Have you sold that business? 

Tom: I had I left that business in 2019 Because I emigrated to Australia, but I'm still in touch with the management team and the founders have that business. And they're doing very, very well. 

Shireen: Right. So then you went on to your second business. 

Next Startup Businsess 

Tom: Yes. So then Carter was our first startup. Second startup was a tech startup in the legal tech space. I went back to our original brand consultant, who went through a very similar process around names contexts, it was quite a different experience, because it was b2b. And I think it depending on your route to markets, and who needs to buy into your, your route to market strategy, it really changes how much you really need to worry about your brand. And how much your brand actually has to say what you do. I think in b2c, you know, there's, there's such a proliferation of brands, sometimes you want your brand to actually explain what you sell. Whereas in, in b2b, a lot of it is relationship driven. So you get the opportunity to explain what you do. People aren't finding you on Google. So that was a very different experience. And we didn't have to be as as cautious and AB test as much. But we did look at competitors, we did get a feel for what was in the industry, and be very thoughtful about where we wanted to position ourselves.  

Shireen: So what do you offer in the legal space, it's one I understand very well. 

Tom: So it's case and matter management. 

Shireen: Alright, so support. 

Tom: Yeah, so backbone system, we integrate very closely with document management systems to do process automation, matter, tracking, dashboarding, all of those, you know, resource planning, and all of that around your matter traffic. 

Shireen: And who buys the law firms. 

Tom: Law firms and large global corporates. So we serve in house legal teams as well as law firms. 

Shireen: So you so did you rebrand that to? Or did you stay with? 

Tom: No, as we set the brand up from scratch, and we've stuck with the brand, it's worked really well. I think there's been iterations and updates to the sort of look and feel of the website and moving from black backgrounds to white backgrounds as the the trends on the internet change. But the core logo and symbolism is has remained the same. 

Shireen: And what's that called?  

Tom: CO flow. 

Shireen: And you did you work with a trademark person? 

Tom: Yes, very early on, we engaged with a because we knew that was going to be a global multinational business, we worked very being in the legal industry, you know, a lot of lawyers. So we've worked with one of the big lawyers, law firms to do the the IP search for us to register the trademarks across the US, the UK, all of the jurisdictions. Because yeah, we've got clients that are global clients. 

Shireen: Okay. And you chose a logo and color scheme and have more or less stayed with that. And positioning. 

Tom: Yeah, and I think we went for, I think with the b2b business, it's a pretty timeless design, it's relatively simple, very similar to kata, we didn't overdo it with symbolism, and that kind of thing. So I think part of the minimalism in the both of those logos and brand essences is a bit more of that timelessness to them. I think because of what we were setting up and being startups, we didn't want to break the mold and go very innovative. But I think the other side of it, though, is if you're building a business around a brand, you also have to be thoughtful about how you change it, because customers may come and go. But you've also got to worry about the 500 people that you're you're hired. And they also need to get behind your brand and believe in your brand. And you need to believe in your brand. So that's where if I get finicky about the font in my brand, it's because I need to look at that font every single day for the next 10 years. I really want to like it, right? Because if there's something I don't, it's gonna bother me for 10 years. So I think that's the other angle to branding and rebranding, that's really important as the impact that it has on staff who have a lot of vested interest in that brand and really resonate with it. 

Shireen: Well, often businesses don't really understand what a brand means. And but you already knew that through being from McKinsey, presumably what actually was involved to, you know, to create a brand and then to stay true to it throughout the business. 

Tom: Yeah, and I think you also at some point, have to do the best with what you've got. So our first company that I joined, I joined after that branded, the way they had chosen the name was they were caught up between five different names, and they wrote each one on a piece of paper, and they crumpled them in bowl and then threw them down a whole way. And whichever one wins the furtherest was the name that they picked. That's not the brand origination brand origin story that you want to be telling new stuff. Right? Yeah. And that that opportunity only comes around once to say, This is why we set up this brand. This is why we called it this. So I think, again, the school fees that we learned from our first experience and seeing when we set up a brand, from that first employee, we want that journey to be more meaningful to us and to the staff member. I think that was an opportunity that when you're growing, the startup management team and a startup, staff contingent, you want all of the help you can get to get people excited. 

Shireen: Yeah, but usually you you identify something that's wrong in an industry that you are going to put right through the business that you're creating. So how did you know that there was a need for whatever you set up with case management, that there was a gap if you like it wasn't being well addressed. 

Filling the gap 

Tom: So, my business partner and I were on the board of a technology consulting company that served lawyers, and we're implementing document management systems, one of one of the global leading document management systems, and clients kept asking for help on the same periphery questions. So we did a strategic review of that business in 2018. And this, this gap kept coming up. And we stepped back and we said, Hang on, this is a product opportunity we've looked at because they were technology resellers. They went out globally, they looked for, for what products were out there, and there wasn't anything that was fit for purpose. And they were custom building the solution for each firm. So that's where we took the step to say, let's really start thinking about this as a product and think about whether we can develop the site as an offering. And that's when we carved it out as a separate business and started developing, developing it as a standalone. And I think the benefit there was because we were already serving large corporates, we could prototype that solution in the biggest companies in the world, we didn't have to start with the mom and pop shop. So that helped us get product market fit very, very quickly, which was quite unique. So yeah, that's how we knew that there was a gap because our customers told us there was a gap, they were asking us to fill it. 

Shireen: Have you ever started a business where you didn't raise capital where you know, you just used your own funds? Or do you always raise capital? 

Tom: So the quarter business, we started on our own funds. And we got that to a point where we had an application prototype, and we had started engaging with car dealerships as partners. And we had pushed it, we had a timeline in mind that if we got that far, we would literally run out of money, and we wouldn't be able to mortgage our homes and you further. So we had wanted to get it as far as we could, so that we could actually show something to shareholders or potential shareholders. And luckily, all of that worked out really well and worked hard according to time. 

Shireen: So you got the branding, anyway, before you'd raise funds. I see. 

Tom: Yeah, because we needed to go out to market and start testing things and, and building the application and building the brand, the front end of the application. So all of that was front loaded. But that's why we didn't go for a big agency out of the gates because we couldn't afford it. And in hindsight, we were quite lucky. Yeah. 

Shireen: So what other experiences have you had of branding then? 

What Brand Means 

Tom: So November, we set up another business for my wife, she has just finished her postgraduate studies in immigration law, and we'll be setting up looking to set up an immigration business. So we worked with a brand consultant on that, which was very exciting and, and very interesting, it was her first time going through the process. Obviously, I've been doing it a couple of times now. And that was, you know, again, really being thoughtful about testing the market, we came up with a bunch of ideas that she liked some ideas she didn't like, but we said, look, let's not get emotionally attached. Let's go run surveys. Let's see what people vote on and what feedback they give us. So by the time we engaged with our brand consultant, we could give her all of that thinking and take her along the journey to say, this is kind of the angle and what we're feeling just so that you know where we're coming at this with. And, and we're open to be taken away from that. But let's not have this awkward situation, when you're in love with something and we're in love with something else. And then we're talking past one another. 

Shireen: Are you talking about the name? 

Tom: The name, the field, the colors, the symbolism, you know, all of that, and also the imagery. So one of the big things that we needed to align on was the Allis scheme, and our brand consultants really liked a warm color scheme. But all of the photographs of Australia are of the Sydney Opera House, which has a lot of blues in it. So if you've got a warm logo with a blue picture, it really caches. So it was those practical uses of the logo that we really had to think about. 

Shireen: Is a brand for you primarily the name and design, rather than what the business is going to be all about and stand for. And I mean, for example, does your wife believe what what does she think is wrong in the immigration industry that she wants to put right? 

Tom: So yeah, so so that space is partially there's a gap, because it's underserved. The agents are currently overwhelmed with the growing number of immigrants and the barriers to entry are very high to become an agent is very difficult to pass the exam is very difficult. So I think part of it is that the and I think part of the opportunity is having me on board, because I've built businesses and I know how to run at scale. And a lot of immigration agents like property agents, like a lot of that they're used to running their own thing with their own notebook and not building big scalable businesses around that. So the opportunity isn't really a positioning one, it's more around word of mouth customer service, because that's really how that industry operates. A lot of it is around your, your personal brand presence and being a trusted person in the industry, then having a trusted presence online. So yeah, we took a lot of that into account. And one of the big trade offs we had to make, which around brand essence was, did we try and come across as a professional services business and feel like a law firm or feel like a business like that? Or did we come across as something that's approachable and softer, with a softer name, and not so much a, you know, gardner and sons or gardner and partners, kind of professional services essence, we tested those names very early on to see what resonated with, with customers with potential customers with people who are going through the immigration process. And they guided us on what kind of brand essence they wanted to engage with. 

Shireen: So it's heavily regulated, isn't it? Immigration? Yes. So you have to be a regulated law firm to do it? 

Tom: You have to be a registered immigration agent. 

Shireen: All right, okay. And this is just in Australia? 

Tom: Australia and New Zealand. 

Shireen: So you can't have world ambitions with something. 

Tom: Unless you go and study the immigration law of Taiwan and rock the board exam and Taiwan. But yeah, but remember, your your market is global. 

Shireen: What you mean people who might be interested in emigrating to? 

Tom: So you typically would have one or two target markets that you would focus on. And a lot of that is language and culture related. So there's agents who focus on Brazil, and they focus on student visas from Brazilian students, or farm workers from Brazil as an example, or there's agents that focus on the United Kingdom for people who want to come to Australia from the United Kingdom. 

Getting The Perspective Of The Market 

Shireen: So how would you actually ask people for their opinions? Because I would have thought unless you've got a substantial number of people to ask, you know, it's just very subjective.  

Tom: It is definitely and I think that's where trying to it is extremely subjective. And I think when at a stage of a business where you don't have a lot of money to throw at it to do focus groups and scientific testing and, you know, statistically significant populations, it's just not at your grasp, that you get very directionally when you ask 20 people and 18 of them vote for the same thing, like, you know, and it's and you use your logic and your own gut feel on it. But I think that, for me is more important than not even asking a customer. 

Shireen: If you've got a really good name, it's possible somebody else might go and register it before you've even had a chance to do that. So that's one of the risks of putting it out, or and asking for opinions on it. 

Tom: Yeah, it is. And I think I haven't come across that. I haven't had that happen yet. And to be fair, I think a lot of the good names have already been taken. It's amazing how many URLs have been registered that are just not available. One of the ones we were looking at other I think koala migration and some random person has bought that and it links to a training business. So that's happening anyway. I think people are gaming the system and getting creative and trying to park domains and business names already. So you've got to work within that. 

Shireen: Although you don't really need a .com nowadays, there are so many other URLs you could choose. Or it's true, it's 

Tom: For me, personally, it was very important on the brand that I've just set up, I think it comes across with more established credibility if you've got So if possible, I think that's helpful. I think a lot of other companies are getting very creative. And that's fine, I think we have to move at the times, that if I have a choice between a .com, or a dot global, or, or I'd go with, if it's available. And I was lucky that the brand that I've just set up does have available. So that was helpful. 

Shireen: So what is your own business now that you're focused on. 

Current Ventures 

Tom: So I'm busy winding down at co flow, the legal tech business, they're busy growing rapidly in the European and the US markets. So me being in Australia is making me a bit disconnected from the business. So I'm stepping away as an executive and focusing on other business opportunities. I'm busy launching a business called the management distillery, which is an executive management training business and accelerator. That's the brand that I've been setting up through November, December. And that really did start with a lot of soul searching around brand essence. Because it's a very saturated market. And there's a lot of training out there. And a lot of it is the same stuff, and wrapped in a different brand. So I think really being thoughtful about what, what it stood for. And I've, as soon as I thought I landed on a on a concept and an idea. I'd sleep on it, and then something else would come up. So I'm glad I didn't rush the process. But a lot of it was around, do I do you label yourself as an X accelerator or as an academy or as a mini MBA, because people know what those are. But the problem is, is that there's so many of them. So eventually, I got down to I was doing some work with an executive. And it was really about clarifying the essence behind what we were doing. And that's where the concept of a distillery came from. And a lot of the symbolism around the brand that we're using is around essence and elements and that kind of thing. So that worked out really well. 

Shireen: Yeah, it's a nice juxtaposition, because you get the descriptive element in having management. But then adding distillery really takes it to the trademarkable level. And as you know, is quite distinctive.  

Tom: Yeah, problem is it's a lot of syllables. So it is a hell of a thing to type out. But I think it's it's memorable. Right, everybody loves a distillery? 

Shireen: Yeah. So have that has that been launched? Or are you still working? 

Tom: I'm currently building the website as we speak. The book is with the editor. So it's yeah, it's a big project for 2024. 

Shireen: So you're writing a book of that name and, and offering potentially an accelerator? 

Tom: Yeah, the book is called From Manager To Executive, which is really the, the intermediate manager gap that I'm fooling with the training that I put together or the program that I put together. And then the medium is an accelerator where you've got, you know, good online, on demand training and a structured program, but then you've got high touch working sessions to really make it applicable and to really pass on knowledge and peer coaching. 

Shireen: So your target market sort of, in house people, people working within companies who want to move? 

Tom: Yeah, so that's the target participants, I think the target market is learning and development managers and professional development managers. So this would be more of a b2b offering. But I think for a lot of them, they want to know what you're delivering. And they want to know why what you're delivering is going to solve their problem. And that's why I think having a very clear brand that angles towards distilling executive thinking rather than toolkits and how to run a one on one, and those kinds of things that there's a lot of that on the internet. That's where I'm doubling down on the brand essence around that real executive thinking kind of space. 

Shireen: And what sort of help have you enlisted for that? I mean, how did you choose who to work with? 

Branding philosophy and strategies  

Tom: Yeah, so the brand consultant that we used for the migration business, got referred to from a friend, she's done a lot of branding work with a lot of famous brands, and I've really liked the work that she's done. So I tested her out really with the migration business to see how she took feedback on board. And you know, whether if that was a success, then I'd roll forward onto the management distillery. And that worked really well. And I think a big part of it was us just sitting down and having breakfast and just getting to know each other so that she could also understand my personnel The Tea how I thought about things, what was important to me from a personal values perspective. And then I think she appreciated that I had a background in building brands and how I tackle that in the past. And I wasn't looking for something that broke the mold, I had a very good idea of what the business needed to stand for. And I think that was really helpful for her to be a thought partner, rather than trying to be a thought leader, which I think was really important. 

Shireen: So presumably, you think that there's something wrong with the education that's currently available for people to move from manager to executive. 

Tom: So again, I am my own conversion story. So my third startup, we had built a new management team, I didn't want to run training again. So I went up and looked in the market to see what was out there. I reached out to all my friends all over the globe, in my network, they were seeing the same thing. They were sending their managers on training, and they were coming back saying that 10% of it was useful, and that there was this real gap around what happens once you've mastered the basics of management, and how do you close that gap between you and the boardroom? You and the C suite. And no one's answered that. So and that's all the work that I've been doing with my teams and all the work that I did training people at McKinsey. So time to not build that for my team, but build that for the world. 

Shireen: Well, that's very interesting. Thank you very much, Tom. Is there anything else that you think I should have asked you that you'd like to mention? 

Tom: Um, no, I think I think we covered but that was a very comprehensive, you know, walk down memory lane. So no, I think that was great. 

Shireen: Well, thanks very much. 

Tom: Thank you, Shireen. Okay, then bye.