James discusses what’s involved to brand an early-stage business, and what work they themselves should ideally first do before seeking help with branding and communications.

• The work that a company needs to do prior to working with James includes:
  • Proof of concept through research
  • Market size
  • Competition analysis
  • Price points
• James’ agency then adds different ways to communicate with their customers, employees, partners and joint venture partners and the company vision.
• Why the world doesn’t need more start-ups, it needs more great businesses
• The three phases James takes his clients through when he is consulting with them:
  • Vision and Mission
  • Visual design
  • Execution
• Why you have to focus on core beliefs as a startup to move forward and stand out
• The importance of being able to clearly articulate your values 

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Shireen: Hello, and welcome to Brand Tuned, successful brands successful business, the show for entrepreneurs and brand creators, where we discuss personal and business Brands to give you ideas and inspiration for your own brand. 

I'm Shireen Smith, lawyer, entrepreneur, author, and advocate for developing purpose based brands to change. James owned a brand strategy agency Silverleaf for 18 years and has lots of experience advising startups and larger corporates going through transformation. He's worked at senior level in marketing. And he actually started out as a photographer, and describes himself as a self taught designer, marketer and brand strategist. So as someone specializing in b2b brands, who works with founders and CEOs, on not just the whys of the brand, but the house of the businesses they run, and the communities and employees they impact. James probably has some really valuable information to share about building a good business and brand. So James, Hello, and welcome to this podcast. 

James: Well, thank you for inviting me Shireen. It's great to be on here. Good. 

Shireen: So I'm going to dive straight in and ask you what does a typical startup business look like that you have experience in supporting with their branding? 

James: Well, probably most of my experience with my agency, were around companies that were starting out, usually with a couple of founders, probably in the B2B space, as that's where my most of my business came from. That was what we specialized in. And really, they're looking for, they spotted an opportunity. They think they've got a solution for that they've spotted an opportunity. Yeah, they can, they can see that they have a solution for it, which they believe will support a business. But they don't really know how to put that in a way where people will understand it and engage with it in the way that they understand it. It's a very much starts out usually as a personal project. And you have to, of course, relate to your customers, not just the people like you, 

Shireen: Okay, so how much work do they need to have done on their own sort of thinking their own brand before they are ready to have help from you? 

James: The critical thing is they have to identify enough information enough proof of concept really business idea. So to take an example, say I worked with a company who was setting up a consultancy, service around retail. And they had a very specific offer that they'd found working for other companies, who was not served at the moment to enable retailers to engage with their customers better. So they had already asked most all their contacts or their industry contacts for feedback on this idea sort of confidentially. They're done some research into the size of the market. So what likely what like how big is the scope of what they're doing? And also, they're looking at competitors, potential competitors, and price points of what they service could could do. Now, these are just starting points, of course, but it does mean that they've got a clearer idea of what the business might look like in six months if everything went to plan. And really, what I was looking to add, or my agency was looking to add was really to crystallize that in different ways in which the business would communicate with their customers, with their employees, with their partners, or with their joint venture partners, depending on how they went to market to try and crisp visual in language. And in sort of vision in terms of where they think the business going and what's different about it. 

Shireen: Okay, so I assume you're trying to find the story line that can be used, is that right? 

James: Well, yes. I mean, it's sort of two ways, really. So you want to if you can't describe it in some sort of a story with a rationale behind it. Then it is very difficult to engage people who haven't heard about you before, and it's just simple and practical. We're sort of hardwired to, to like stories and to understand information in a story format. And it also keeps us listening and keeps us interested if you can use some of those techniques. So storytelling is critical, I think it's probably more critical now than it's ever been the ability to tell stories through brands, because there's so much noise out there. Yeah, it's so many different companies, so many different alternatives, very difficult actually, for people to distinguish between the great companies and the not so great companies. So the ability to actually tell a credible story and back it up, is absolutely critical for for most companies want looking to leverage their brand and build it over a period of time. 

Shireen: Okay, so is that part and parcel of the communication strategy that you are helping them with, or it's mixed.  

James: So part of it obviously, will be the execution will be around the communications and what you say and how you say it. But also, a lot of my time at the beginning of these projects was usually spent around working with the founders, to put down a vision of the company, where it's going, where the brand is going to develop, what sort of values it has. So you've got that whole vision mission, sort of side of the coin, and two sides of the coin, where vision is the concept, and mission is the practical execution really, in terms of how you're going to get there. And this really, if you can distill that down, even though it's it is quite hard to do. But if you can distill that down, it does mean that you have a shortcut to explain what your business is, across many, many different formats and situations, whether that's a pitch to raise funding, or whether that's talking to customers, or whether that's designing your customer support strategy, or whatever it might be. If you have those two, those fundamentals in place, it helps enormously, and that's also the basis of starting with the visual identity as well. 

Shireen: And if somebody's from a commoditized business area, where you know, there's plenty of other providers offering exactly the same services, would they still have to have a vision? Or would you be able to help them find, find something that even if they hadn't discovered how they could be unique? 

James: I think, in general, some people don't realize that, I mean, we would help them definitely, I think some people don't realize that they have a unique story, they just see, like, they see see that they engage with customers differently to the other people that are out there, even if the service seems to be identical. And you have to work with them to try and tease that out of their business. Because, you know, starting a new business is not only risky, it takes a lot of investment and sacrifice and everything else. And you know, to be brutally frank, if you're producing something that's already out there. Why don't you just go and join them, you know, the world doesn't need more startups. The world needs more great businesses. And probably great businesses with a with a few ethics on the environment and other things as well. But fundamentally, you don't want to go through all that pain and that sacrifice and everything else, and you won't get funding for it either. So if you go to raise some money, and you say, well, it's just like everyone else's business, but we happen to be 10 miles away, then it's very unlikely you're going to be able to raise money. 

Shireen: I heard a statistic somewhere that 20% of the population is going to be running their own businesses. So it's quite a trend for people to be freelance or to run their own shows. Yeah, I guess. So. That's part of the issue. I don't know what trend in society is, is behind that. 

James: And so if you look at generation Zed, coming up, their expectations of work are completely different to previous generations. So they expect to be in several different jobs they spent to be have more value in what they do not just commercial value. And because they expect to change a lot during their career and jump from different projects and different things, then they almost have an expectation that one of those things might be starting their own business. And I do think that at school they should teach much more about entrepreneurialism, because the chances are that most of the kids coming out of school in the next 20 years, even if they don't start a business, they'll probably be working for an entrepreneur who started their business. 

Shireen: Yeah, it's such an important skill to develop. Yeah, absolutely. 

James: And it's, there's also a big area around coping with ambiguity around that. So there's lots of uncertainty when you start start your business, and you have to have a certain level of comfort with that uncertainty. So not for everyone, not everyone's approach to work will suit that. But that understanding of what people are coping with is also important, even if you're not the one doing it. 

Shireen: Right. So how then, will you help them to better to have a better business once they come to you? 

James: Well, I guess, there are sort of three phases really of, of how I work with different businesses to build their brands. So the first one is what we've mentioned around vision and mission and defining what they want to create and how it's different. It doesn't have to be unique. People think, well, what's your unique selling point? Well, I think that can get you bogged down very quickly. But you do need a distinctive selling point or a distinctive point of difference. If no other reason that then so people will remember you. And that is hugely important in branding and very underrated the actual appreciation of the fact that in order to get people to look at your products and your services, you have to be remembered that sort of number one. And that's why the really big brands do so well, because they're top of people's minds, when they're thinking about certain products or services, they always go to the default ones. And so that's why these big players dominate their markets. So the second bit of that, really, and primarily because it was our speciality is looking at the visual design, and the visual of it, because our senses are dominated by our vision. So I think that sort of 70% of our sensory information is his vision. So we need to look at that, because it really is the core of what they do, it's also really useful as a process to work through a series of options based on the vision of the company, and how that might be expressed. And sometimes it can be expressed very subtly. So just in terms of the color palette, the typography, things like that. And sometimes it has to be very explicit with logos and icons and things that depict what they do in a particular way. But it's a very useful exercise to go through with the founders to actually talk about these different issues with the context of some examples that we've created in front of them. And then we can start to refine and develop them also in the context of what else is out there as well. So, you know, do they like a particular? Are they closer to Airbnb, or they're closer to Microsoft, or whatever you might use as a sort of metaphor for how they, how they see themselves in terms of coming across. And the third one is really about execution. So what I think it's very important that whatever the visual identity and the logo and the branding, that's only gets you halfway, but critical thing is how do you use that? What is you know, what is going to be on your stationery, you know, how are you going to talk to customers, how are you going to live up to that vision, their mission, the promise that you're making as a brand to your customer, how you're going to live up to that in every aspect of what you do. Because if you can be consistent there, and keep on going and keep on reinforcing these elements, you're going to be more memorable than someone talking at lots of different angles about lots of different things that you do great. It's much better to talk about the things that you really believe in, and the things that you stand for, as well as having a visual identity that reflects this, as well as communicating taking part to the right marketing activities to prove that you can do that, as well as creating products and services which people love, because they're true to you. And this is really a fundamental about an authentic brand that people are trying to create these days. 

Shireen: This is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but in practice, how do you just stick to discussing a few narrow topics without becoming boring for example? Or is it just that you are you and you express your your opinion? And so because your brand represents you, it should be alright. Because as long as you're being authentic, is that how it works or... 

James: Not really, so not from my perspective anyway. So I know what you mean, if you're too narrow, and you can get bogged down in sort of repetitive repetition. But really the the core of your brand should be conceptual enough to allow you some space to translate that into any any area of your business. So you should be able to explain it to say you've grown a little bit and you've got a team behind you. It should mean something specific to your HR people. And it should mean something specific to your sales people. And that should be consistent across the two, but they're talking about completely different things. So to take an example. So Apple, for the obvious brand example. And they fundamentally, certainly, for the first 20 years since Apple, Apple was joined by Steve Jobs, again, they stood for rebellion against the man or the standard, or the non creative square, or whatever you want to call it. And that came across in many different ways it came across in how they design, the screens that were displayed on their devices, the colors, they chose the type of advertising the music that went with it. And when they talked about a business solution, or a consumer solution, they weren't saying the same thing. But they were representing the same idea about who they were. So it doesn't mean you have to repeat yourself, if you understand what you stand for, you should be able to riff and ad lib on the back of that and still get people's attention. In a way. It's it's the job of people like me, to come up with ideas that are consistent, but also new and interesting and distinctive. When you do run marketing or branding campaigns.  

Shireen: Yeah, well talking about Apple is interesting, because to me, I buy Apple because of their good design and usability, it's very easy to use their products, I was never even aware of all these other things rebelliousness or, and that would never have been the reason for me to particularly buy Apple, it was purely their design, the fact that everything is so beautifully designed and easy to use, I think.  

James: So that's sort of the obviously that's a core part of who they are. They're the design primacy of the design. But if you think about it, in terms of contrasting with someone like Mac, Microsoft or IBM, when they make computers, you can see the feel of it was not the same. And it was much more personal. And I think Apple have, because they've grown so much and establish their brand in so things they will mean different things to different people. But for most startups, you have to crystallize in a particular idea. And that's, that's where that's how Microsoft, Apple really got going with the iPod and things like that, and when they first brought them out, is that they focused on that concept of beautiful, easy to use, you know, not overly technical, we're not sort of keeping this exclusively for the geeks, it's for the creatives, it's for the people who want to rebel against things, it's not quite as true now, because they're so well established, they have to mean different things to different people and will express that. But for a startup, you really have to focus on those core beliefs to take you forward. And to make you stand out and just to return to your brand promise, I guess, yeah. And to reduce the number of options, quite frankly. Because if you can do everything, then your message can get really confusing really quickly. So the more you can simplify that, the better. And that is something that, you know, it's better to do something really high quality, you know, with really good quality, creative, you know, whether that's messaging or video or photography, or whatever it might be in a really, you know, solid way with some interesting messaging and some perhaps some solid data or particularly good product behind it better to do that really, really well than try and promote in as many channels as you possibly can, trying to customize the message for every audience that's out there. Because the chances are, some of those audience will see several of these messages and get really cool refused and sort of write you off. 

Shireen: We'll take a short break at this point, as I'd like to mention the Brand Tuned series of webinars, which support founders to think through their brand, taking IP into account at the right time, which is before you make firm decisions about what to create, just visit brand tuned.com. And the webinars are referenced right there on the homepage. Okay, back to the podcast. So do you explain the different designs to people? Or are you just looking for them to respond in one way or another to a design that you show them? 

James: Yeah, so normally, when we're doing the visual identity, and we're designing the sort of the makeup of what their brand might look like, there are two elements. So firstly, they're never shown in isolation. So they're always before the process begins, we talked to the client about what are the five or six most common things you're going to do with your brand and your logo, you know, that you'll use day to day. And for some people that might be social media, and some people that might be printed literature, or website or invoicing or whatever it might be. And so when we do the visual ideas, we actually mock all these things up into those visual ideas to show the execution in a full schematic of all the different permutations. And that way, it's easier for the client who hasn't necessarily got a lot of experience doing this sort of thing, to visualize what it'd be like at the end of the day. And then we would introduce each of the concepts, why we've approached things in a different way, why they're pushing in one direction or another. And to see what the reaction is. So you know, this is more radical, it's more like competitor x in that direction they've established themselves there, it will do the job for you, because of, you know, these factors in the design, and how it's being put together. And whereas there's other one, which is more conservative, but will be more flexible, and you can do things and more channels more quickly, or it'll save you print costs, or whatever it might be. So we give them a range of usually, usually three or four options, and explained the basic approach. And from that point, they can then comment, and we can see how they react to the different designs, and have a conversation about them a dialog backwards and forwards rather than just a presentation. And then, you know, pick the one you like, because they might end up picking features of one and colors of another and, you know, layouts of a third and that sort of thing. And it's our job to try and if possible, make the work together? 

Shireen: And what about values? How are you helping them? In terms of how many values do they need to have? How, how do they hold on to those values? Later once the branding is finished? 

James: Yeah, so I think, before we get to the visual identity, we're really focusing on that vision and mission thing and the values that they need to focus on and, and probably nine out of 10 cases, they already know what these are, even if they haven't quite articulated it. And we might have to spend a bit of time working out how to articulate those values, just so everyone's happy with it. Because that's their sort of touchstone. 

Shireen: how many values are you talking about? And to what depth? Do you go into a value? I mean, is it one word, or is it sentences? 

James: I think it depends totally on the on the company. So how clear their, their vision is for the for the business? And how how principled they want to be, you know, how strong they want to be and how it relates to what they're offering. So often it can be two or three words, but it could be a sentence. Certainly the shorter the better jet in general, without being Yeah, so, you know, generic that it doesn't really mean anything. But I think the important thing is to think it through in quite a lot of detail. So just sort of roleplay you know, six months, a year from now, two years from now, if everything's gone fantastically well, what will those value mean to your organization? You're now 50 People, you got four product lines. You know, what will HR be saying about the company? What will your PR agency be doing for you related to those values? How will customer service work and reflect those, you know, those sort of exercises are really useful just just to think it through? And are those solid enough to take you through the next two or three difficult years? 

Shireen: Do you actually help them to work out what their values are? I mean, when I was a startup, I remember this didn't mean anything to me when a branding agency said, What are your values? I said, Well, values about what you know. So to people who are not used to branding? 

James: Yeah, it is difficult. And I do, I do have a sort of, I'm not always convinced that a startup has to have values, I think, a vision for the company. And a mission of how they're going to get there is probably more important, certainly, at the startup phase, because I think, values that are most useful, probably when you're a slightly bigger company, when you're trying to commute when you're trying to hire people, create a culture within the company that's consistent, and get people to understand how you want things to play out and grow. So I'm not always I think they can be overdone. And I think it's, it can be pretentious to say, well, you know, we believe in honesty? Well, most people wouldn't believe in honesty, really. It can be just there because it's another exercise for the agency to earn a bit more money. So I'm more concerned with the vision for the business to make sure that they've thought through what direction they would like the business to go in. And the mission. 

Shireen: What difference they want. 

James: Yeah, what difference they want to make, why they should exist in the first place. So you know, why can't the company they've just left, do what they're going to do? You know, there will be reasons for that. And I think to tease those out, and to play them back is a useful way of getting to the bottom of why they've started the business in the first place. 

Shireen: And how long does that process take? How long are you working with someone from beginning to end? 

James: Yeah, it does vary an awful lot. So obviously, it will vary on budget, on complexity, size of project, also on sector. So if it's a retail client, they will probably need more time. There's more research needs to be done more testing on consumers, that sort of thing. 

Shireen: But as sort of startup in B2B. 

James: Yeah. So I think probably my typical projects along those lines would be around two months, something like that start Rheinische. 

Shireen: So they do need to be pretty clear about what they want, before they come to, yeah, seems to me that about their business have their business plan.  

James: So I think that I mean, I think it just takes a lot longer if you have those elements. Because there's a whole extra round of things that you have to go through. And they're hard things to sort out, you know, it's, it's a collaboration. So it's not just, it's what I'm trying to bring out of them. It's not what I'm trying to impose on them as an idea. I'm just trying to reflect what their thoughts were when they first started. 

Shireen: Yeah, it's, it can take a long time to get that clarity that, yeah, people need Yeah, and 

James: I think there is that element with startups is, you know, you've got that thing where well isn't, you know, the minimum viable product or whatever the minimum viable company shouldn't be just have something to get going. And, and trying to do it super fast. And I think there is a middle way where you can say, so long as you're aware of the risks of going ahead with a, you know, sort of placeholder identity or have played price placeholder brand. And you'll realize you'll probably have to reinvest in the whole process again, at a later date, then you can make a case for that. But I think I you know, in most circumstances, you want to have something reasonably solid that will last you certainly for the first two to three years. Just so that you because you'll learn so much in those next period. That everything will probably have changed within the first 18 months in terms of your market, your approach to the market, what you're offering, how you see everything, you know, your things will change for sure.  

Shireen: And yeah, absolutely. A lot of my clients that I see look nothing like they initially presented as they've got a different name and a totally different visual with In a couple of years, because they've worked out what the market will respond to. 

James: Yeah, exactly. And you have to be there. But this is, again, why I think, a little bit of time investing in that vision and the mission is time well spent. Because it provides your foundations for the building that you're building above, which, at some point, you might have to knock down and build again. But if you've built good foundations, they can stay virtually unchanged. 

Shireen: Okay. Well, one final question, James. And that is, what do you think about them going to somewhere like 99 designs and getting a totally temporary design in place while they was, you know, work out more about our business? What's your take on that? 

James: Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of these sort of, yeah, sort of types of online forums where you can get logos and things designed by, you know, competition, or, you know, for fairly cheap amounts, right. And there's nothing wrong. Technically, with that. I mean, I've used services like that, as part of projects. But of course, they can't do the business consultancy bit that we've been talking about. So they may be an option, if you know how to brief them if you know what you're looking for. And you've done the rest of the work already. Also, if these people are actually able to not just design a logo, but design the station, redesign a brochure at the same time, because a logo on its own is not really a brand. Sure, just one smaller element of it. And I think people make that mistake quite a lot to think, oh, we just need a logo now. And then we can slap it on everything, and then it will be fine. Well, actually, the devils in the detail when it comes to design, and small improvements in design and quality of design can make a huge difference in the impression that you give to your first and critical set of customers. So I would say in principle, there's nothing wrong with it. But just realize it's one small part of a bigger picture that you're trying to piece together. And you have to bear that in mind when you do it. 

Shiren: Yeah, well, I'm thinking when they're testing the concepts, because often you have to have a name, you have to have some sort of visuals. And that can actually delay people if they want to go and do it all properly. So yeah, as a strategy, you know, to be able to just test the market, see what, what's out there? And then maybe a year down the line, do it all properly.  

James: Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with that approach. Particularly if you're going into a fast moving piece of the economy, and it's, it needs a lot of testing, then there's, there's nothing wrong with that. So long as you realize you will have to do it at some Yeah, sure. But yeah, there's nothing wrong with doing it that way. But you just have to be clear about why you're doing it and what, how you sort of fit it in that the only problem with that sometimes is that you get locked into what you've come up with in an afternoon. And it's actually becomes quite difficult to move away from him. So, for example, if you're associated with a particular color. But you realize that perhaps that's too generic, or you know, you don't stand up off of an hour or you don't stand out on the shelf, or whatever it might be, then it can be actually quite difficult commercially, to move away from that initial sketch of the idea. 

Shireen: Do you think so, to change colors difficult to think? 

James: Well, I think it depends, I mean, color is an example. But I think color and color or particular shape, or if you change the style radically or a combination of one or two of those, if you've got an initial good sort of push of success, if you like, then it can, it can give you a bit of a hiccup in terms of your business growth, if you have to, if you then reinvent those, and you become less recognizable. So it will basically you just have to take account of that and maybe invest in that relaunch in a way that people will, you know, take take notice of you again and reset their understanding. It really does depend on what market you're in to a large extent? 

Shireen: Yeah, I'm sure. So thank you very much, James. It was really interesting talking to you. 

James: Well, thank you for having me on. And I look forward to reading the book and listening to the podcast. 

Shireen: Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Brand Tuned, where we aim to answer the question, what does it take to create a successful business and brand? I'd love it. If you would take a moment to give me a review. If you have any questions, send me a message. You can find me on LinkedIn, or most other social media platforms, or on my personal website, shireensmith.com.