Positioning with Paige Arnof-FennDec 19, 2021
Shireen Smith: Hello, my guest today is Paige Arnof-Fenn, who is the founder and CEO of Mavens and Moguls, which is a marketing or branding firm located in the USA. She'll tell us more about what they do during this episode. Now Paige graduated from Stanford University and holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. She also held a number of positions in marketing and branding. So, I'm really looking forward to discussing all things branding with her particularly focused around positioning during this episode.
Shireen Smith: Welcome to the brand tune podcast page. So, tell us a bit more about your background. And what led you to setting up Mavens and Moguls? And also, what does the firm actually focus on?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, it's been a bit of a circuitous path, to be honest with you. I started my career on Wall Street in the 1980s. And I only got into marketing. When I was in graduate school, I went back for an MBA, and I got a summer internship at Procter and Gamble, and I liked brand management and marketing so much I ended up going back after I got my degree, and I've been in marketing ever since. So, I've now been doing marketing for well, more than 30 years, it's hard to believe. So, I started my marketing career in big fortune 500 firms like Procter and Gamble, and Coca-Cola, you know, big CPG marketing. Then in the mid-90s, I got bitten by the .com bug, a lot of great marketing jobs were in technology and startups. So, I left my big corporate cushy job at Coke, I was the assistant chief marketing officer there, and I joined my first startup in Los Angeles, as a chief marketing officer, I was the head of marketing, and we went public back in 99, and we were sold to Yahoo. And then I did another startup as the head of marketing, and we were sold to Bertelsmann. And then I did a third startup is the head of marketing, and we went public, and we were sold as well. So, my next chapter, if you will, was more startup marketing, by taking brands that were not very well known, and creating everything from soup to nuts about the brand, making it kind of more of a household name, and helping it get a lot of attention and becoming a much more global popular public brand. And then, right after 911, I started my own firm, hung out a shingle for Mavens and Moguls. And I've been doing marketing on my own ever since for about 20 years. So, I look at those as kind of three discrete chapters of my career, corporate branding, startup branding, and now kind of entrepreneurial branding. And they've all been great. They're just very different challenges.
Shireen Smith: So, what size of entrepreneurs to help currently in your business?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, we work with companies at every stage from early-stage startup pre-revenue venture-backed all the way to fortune 500. But our core clients, the majority, probably two-thirds of our clients are in the mid-market, emerging market phase, like 2 million to 200 million in revenue. So, they maybe have one person or a very skeletal marketing crew in-house, but they need access to great talent to help them scale and grow. And the firm that I started Mavens and Moguls is a virtual marketing department basically, for companies that need access to great marketing talent on an as-needed outsource basis. So, we do work with companies, as I said, at the pre-revenue stage, they may need a logo, a tagline, business cards, a website. We also work with fortune 500 companies, the differences at the fortune 500 level, they usually have a marketing department, they have an ad agency of record, they maybe have a PR agency of record, but they have a specific problem or challenge that their audience cannot help them that they're the resources that they have, are not able to meet the challenge. So, they bring in outside experts and we help them get through the crunch period are to crack the code and solve that problem so they can get back on track. But like I said the majority of our clients they need they need access to a kind of team that can help them scale. But they don't need them all the time. And we're just like an extension of their in-house team.
Shireen Smith: So, one of the big problems, I guess, for smaller businesses is lack of a budget to do things like research. So how do you tackle research when it comes to small businesses.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, we do both quantitative and qualitative market research. And we basically form teams on specifically what the client needs. So, if all they need our surveys, we can do things very scrappy, on a very low budget with Survey Monkey or Zoomerang, we can do focus groups, we can do online groups, so we work with a variety of budgets and a variety of stages. And it's just a matter of being able to kind of prioritize the most important problems you're trying to solve and allocating the budget to the things that are most important to you, and the great thing about working with an outsource team, is you only pay for what you need. So, you know, if you don't need PR, if you don't need general marketing, communications, or collateral material, you don't need to meet those people on the team. If all you want is research, we can cobble together a very scrappy, you know, way it might not be statistically significant the way it might be at Procter and Gamble, or Coca Cola, but we can at least get the problem addressed and some, some data wrapped around is, you know, are we asking the right question, are we using the right messaging are these graphics compelling, so we can get to it in a very scrappy way.
Shireen Smith: Okay, so a pre-revenue business that might need your help with everything with their brand, the starting point is presumably to understand the market better, so how to manage, you know, the budgets in terms of helping them and then deciding what kind of brand to create for them.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, because I started my career at P&G, P&G is a very data-driven marketer, they love the analytics and the data behind the brand. So, I always suggest that my clients start with some version of market research. Again, it doesn't have to be statistically significant the way it might, at P&G, where you have a lot more time and a lot bigger budgets, but you do need to talk to your target audience. And you also need to segment your audience into a primary, secondary, and tertiary audiences. Because there are decision-makers, there are gatekeepers, there are people that influence the buying decision. So, you do want to at least reach out and have some degree of confidence that the image, the pricing, the packaging, the offer, is the message is compelling, to the different audiences that you're talking to. And we, you know, again, we're not going to be able to uncover every, every avenue, we will be able to with a fairly high degree of confidence, you know, like me, most of the people on my team, most of my colleagues have been doing, you know, high-level marketing for decades. So, we have a pretty good gut feel when things when we start seeing data come in. If we're on the right track, we have a much higher degree of confidence based on our track record, our experience our history, that okay, I've seen this before, I'm starting to notice something is not kind of sinking up, we better go this direction, we better ask some more questions here. And we just keep digging until we feel a high degree of confidence that the package that we're putting together is going to be compelling to the target audience
Shireen Smith: Sure, so would you start with a survey generally, I know it depends on the type of business.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Yeah, I mean, I think, again, with Survey Monkey and Zoomerang. It's a very cost-efficient way to, you know, reach out to a broad audience. I think that the risk for a lot of companies, they say, oh, we don't need your help, we'll just do it ourselves. And I think the challenge for a lot of small businesses is with market research, you have to ask them questions in a way where you're getting real feedback? I think that danger for a lot of businesses is, it's like garbage in, garbage out, if you ask questions in a way, where you're leading the witness, like, don't you think this is great, or tell me what you love about this, tell me why you want to buy it, you're encouraging them to give you positive feedback. So sometimes it helps having a more objective third party to help you structure the survey, to ask the questions in an objective way so that you're getting real feedback. And another risk I think a lot of small businesses do is they think they're conducting research by asking their friends and family and neighbors about, you know, how they like a product, or whether they buy a product. And the problem is your friends and family are not necessarily going, to be honest with you, they don't want to hurt your feelings. So, it's important.
Shireen Smith: It's absolutely the most difficult thing to get right is actually that research of understanding who you're creating the product for, and creating the best, you know, identifying the best target market for it. So, I'm just wondering, do you use something like jobs to be done theory, for smaller businesses to get to? answers, I've heard that that's a very good approach to use for smaller businesses who don't have a big job budget.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of different techniques that we use. And you know, sometimes you have to go down a certain path, and you may hit a wall, and you have to pivot, and course correct. Um, you know, you try you learn. That's just you learn to do by doing. And I think for a lot of these early-stage companies, some of them are embarking in new areas, or areas that are very high growth. And so, there's not necessarily a well-worn path that you're following. So, you're constantly pivoting and course correcting, incorporating data and information. And when you see something, you push further, and if you hit a brick wall, and you go a different direction. So, I think it's, you know, it helps to have people with a growth mindset on your team that like to learn and push themselves, and just learn as much as possible, as fast as possible. And I think.
Shireen Smith: Product market fit kind of thing, where you keep changing. So how do you then deal with the branding, given that the positioning is maybe going to be fluid and might change? As you understand the market better? Or how to start with the branding? Would you have a temporary approach initially, and then refine it later? How do you go about giving them an identity?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, once it's grounded in the market research, you've put together kind of a straw man, and, you know, you're, you're constantly getting as much input as you possibly can, putting together kind of the pieces of the brand. And, again, it's an iterative process, you're testing you're learning, and, you know, against different audiences, you may be getting different feedback. And so, you're having to, again, from a messaging standpoint, you're looking at it in a hierarchy of messages. You know, in terms of the target audience, the gatekeepers, the media is going to be influential. And, you know, for our team, we're kind of going down concurrent paths, a lot of the times, both visually, you know, we're trying to find the right words and the right pictures to tell a compelling story. So, and you're looking you're you do a competitive analysis, you look at what the competitive landscape looks like, you look at what real estate is already owned by your competition, where there are gaps, holes or needs that can be filled, what real estate there is to own.
Shireen Smith: How do you mean by real estate?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, in your target audience’s brain
Shireen Smith: Alright, so in terms of positioning
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Exactly, so you want to carve out some unique area, some real estate in their brain that you can own and that when they have that problem, they think of you first every time? And what are the trigger? Words, pictures? How do you set yourself up so that when they when they are in a situation where you could help them with your product or your service, that you're the first thing that they think of every time? So, we're trying to help position our clients to be kind of that first line of defense.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, I think that's obviously very important to get a business off the ground. But, you know, Byron Sharp research the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute, they found that differentiation isn't something that is observed by buyers, sort of once a business is very, very established, it's their distinctive, sort of their name, logo, or that that actually lasts.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: And I think, you know, it's about being consistent at every touchpoint. So that you're constantly reinforcing your core messages. And it's for standing for, like one or two things that you own, above everyone else, I think a lot of brands mess up, when they dilute their message, they try to stand for too many things, they've got too many messages, there's too much going on. So, you really want to streamline and reinforce constantly, the same messages and every touchpoint in every everything you do, whether it's online or offline, you know.
Shireen Smith: The same message delivered in different ways. The visual side, though, because that's where intellectual property is very important, you know, in terms of all the identifiers, the names and such like, and that's what you can protect, whereas you can't protect your positioning against copying. So how do you decide what sort of brand name and other identifiers to choose how.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, we do a lot of naming work for our clients, we have a process we go through, and we love developing new names. And you know, the process of checking those names, making sure you can get the URL, that there's no confusion that it sounds the way it spells. If you think there are multiple ways to spell it, you have to make sure you own all those URLs so that they all feed-in to the same place. And then having a great graphic design team to put together a strong graphic standard manual that you use that all your partners use. And again, in this world, where you've got affiliates, you've got people that you know, you're guest blogging, and you're partnering, and you're you know, you're doing a lot of shared co-branded stuff, you want to make sure your brand integrity stays intact, and that the logos, the colors, the imagery, all of that look and feel needs to be consistent across all the different platforms. If you look one way on Facebook another way on Twitter another way on LinkedIn and other way on your website, it dilutes your brand, it can be very confusing, and then you're not going to own that real estate in your customer’s mind. So, you've got to tie it all together with a bullet proof brand blueprint that you can use and share with all of your partners. And everybody's going to be sinking up so that it all has a consistent look and feel.
Shireen Smith: Right? Would you actually try to make sure your color that you choose is different to everyone else in the category? I mean, would you actually choose a symbol if nobody else is using one? How do you actually decide on the visual?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, again, we do creative exploratory work when we're doing logo and imagery. You know a lot of companies have red or blue as a green as an anchor color. You know, I would never say to somebody you could never use blue because too many companies use blue, but there are a lot of shades of blue. And you know, maybe there's a PMS shade that is uniquely it embodies kind of the Gestalt of that brand. You know, our color, if you will, is more of a red, but I'm in your own business. Exactly. And you know you the logo, the font that you use, it should not look like everybody You definitely don't want it to be confusing or to blend in, you know, in the in the United States, there are two big battery brands Eveready and Duracell.
Shireen Smith: Actually, that that's because of Duracell started out with a pink rabbit, which their trademark then lapsed, so Energizer began using a pink rabbit. And now it's very confusing, isn't it?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Very confusing, and when one of them advertises the other ones, market share will increase. So, you have to be very careful that you're not advertising for your competition, and that the money.
Shireen Smith: If you protect if you protect what you create. And don't let your trademark lapse, then you do get a wide suppose scope of protection, exactly. Competitors using a similar sort of character.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Exactly, so you have, you just have to be careful, and again, you have to, when you build a brand, you'd have to continue supporting it and own it. Otherwise, it gets diluted or worst case, you're building your competition.
Shireen Smith: You know, I've noticed that marketers and designers, brand managers are not trained in intellectual property. And yes, it's so intrinsic to branding. How did you did any of your employers actually train you in intellectual property? How did you pick up your knowledge?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, I have no legal training whatsoever. But having started my career, at places like P&G, and coke, where, you know, you have these multifunctional teams, where the brand people kind of lead the team, legal is always involved as part of your team. So, I guess I was just trained in a more brand management mindset where you want to make sure you have legal clearance to do every all the claims you're making, and that everything is protected. So, when I went to go work at the startups, you know, that was a legal was kind of an ancillary side. They were really not there for the necessarily to think about the brand issues.
Shireen Smith: Afforded it, so how did you manage?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, again, the first two startups I worked for the CEOs, the first one, they were technology, guys that were much younger than me, I was kind of the older person on the management team. So, the lawyer who was also more experienced, I would, I would just share things with them, like send them copies on emails, I'd send them things and just say, FYI, or can you take a look, and people weren't using him in that way, he always really appreciated it, because he was a little older and had more classical training. He always felt like, I had his back, and he had my back. But I don't think a lot of the younger people grew up in that system. And, you know, with a lot of startups, they didn't have that corporate grounding, they didn't have the corporate training. So, they just didn't know to ask for they didn't know to cover their hands to do it. Um, but I guess I got lucky because I grew up in a system where I realized, you know, and when we do naming work and branding work for our clients, we always try to get them to get a trademark or service mark, and be prepared to protect it. Because if not all the work is for nothing.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, so that's very interesting, obviously, they deal with things differently at the P&G and Coke level. I mean, Coke is an example of a brand that is really used IP law well, because they have this sort of suppose it secret formula, instead of getting a patent and, you know, they've used a font that all the work they did to get the bottle actually to be trademarked was it took about 14 to 15 years of having a strategy to achieve it so that they're really exemplary in the way they've behaved. Ever since they started, I think,
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Well, if you look at a really strong brand, coke being maybe one of the most recognized brands in the world. You know, so much of their brand, if you will, is the goodwill that's wrapped up, you know, they have trucks, they have production facilities. But if you look at the market cap and the market value of that brand, it's absolutely in, in all the brand elements, it's you know, I think that's a definite case of where one plus one equals like 10. Okay, you look at the buildings and the plants and the trucks, that does not equal the market cap of Coke, it is absolutely the sum is greater than the parts.
Shireen Smith: So, when you're helping brands who are small and aspire to be big, what do you feel is the most important area to focus on for them to be able to succeed.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So today, you don't exist unless you have an online presence. And your online reputation is everything. So, you know, with social media, if something runs amok, and you don't get ahead of it, it can ruin your business overnight. So, with the majority of my clients being those smaller, emerging market firms, it's trying to help them build a great online brand and online reputation. And just reinforcing it constantly and protecting it in everything that they do. That really is the name of the game today.
Shireen Smith: And what about storytelling? How do you actually help your clients with that?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, if you walk down the aisle at the grocery store, and you pick up any product off the shelf, if you go to a retail shop, and you know, look at the tennis shoes, look at the T-shirts, look at the purses, everything has a story today, the salsa, you can read about the tomatoes being grown organically, and it's the grandmother's recipe. And you know, the everything has a backstory, and storytelling is so important to branding. Again, it's what makes you unique, special, and different. Because you know every product, every service has a different heritage has a different birth story and organic growth story. And so, you really have to leverage that in on your website, on your packaging, you know, in everything that you're doing. So, storytelling is a huge piece of what we do in terms of finding those stories, getting those stories, kind of documented, sharing the stories. And again, really finding ways to retell those stories in every touchpoint. You know, are you doing it on your website? Are you doing it in your white papers? Are you doing it in your content marketing? Are you doing it in your thought leadership, all of that it needs to be consistent? So, it's putting together a platform and a discipline to capture the stories, retell the stories, and share the stories across all the touchpoints.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, I mean, that sounds really true. And I can identify that it's important. But on the other hand, when I think of myself as a consumer, and think of some brands that I buy, you know, I don't actually know very much about them at all, I've just developed a preference for them. Like for example, clothes, I'll go to Gerard Darel, Betty Barclay, there are certain designers, I just know that their clothes might look good on me that they're comfortable. And therefore, I go there first or with something like mayonnaise, I'll pick Hellman's mayonnaise because I've tried it and I prefer it to others, but I don't have a clue about their stories or why the brands emerge, what their positioning is. So how to tie that together.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So again, consumers find brands in different ways. And some of them the storytelling is the compelling way to capture that audience for things like clothes. Obviously, how they fit the material, how they feel on your skin, how they look, the image of the brand. You know, it could be their advertising, it could be the models, or You know who's associated with that brand? It's all part of the brand story.
Shireen Smith: And maybe I’m not aware of how I even became aware of them. Right? It's provided subliminal.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: There's a lot of that to no question. But I think if there was a model that was modeling, a designer that you'd found the model offensive, or you didn't really relate to that model, you probably wouldn't feel as good about that, that designer. So, it's like all the imagery, all the associations are consistent with the core values that you have, with the image you have of yourself, they're aspirational to you, you see yourself, it's a, it's improving your personal brand. So, all of that is linked together today. And as you said, a lot of it can be kind of subliminal, you don't even know you know, we are bombarded with I think anywhere from five to ten thousand messages a day, you just can't even imagine all the different it's not just ads that pop up on your phone or on your computer. It's you know, things you see when you're walking down the street, the billboards, what you're hearing in your earphones, the things you see in newspapers, and magazines, what you hear on the radio, all of that is bombarding you and you're processing it constantly. So, you're you've got your own filter of what you let in and what you kind of push away.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, and the brand obviously needs to have a coherent story, so that they know how to advertise and what to say in the hope that something filters through.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: And the brand is really what makes you remember them, that's what makes them visible in a world that's kind of increasingly invisible. If they have a brand, you remember it. You can look it up online, you ask for it by name. If it's not a brand, it's a commodity, and you're going to shop for it on price, then you don't care at all. There is no brand.
Shireen Smith: So, what are your own aspirations for your business?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: You know, I've been doing I restarted this business 20 years ago, I never ever, ever expected to still be running it 20 years later, my longest job before starting Mavens and Moguls was three and a half years. So, I've worked for myself, like multiples of times longer than I've worked for anyone else. Honestly, I can't imagine going back and working for anyone ever again. I joke that I'm like officially unemployable now because if I get sick of my boss, this time, I'm really screwed. Because I don't know that I could go back and work for anybody again,
Shireen Smith: But would never stop working. I don't imagine not wanting to work.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: I think the beauty of starting your own business is, you know, Mavens and Moguls, for me is more than a company. It's a platform to do the things that I enjoy doing. So yes, there's consulting, there's speaking, there's board work, there's mentoring, there's coaching. So, Mavens for me is a platform to do the work that I love, where I feel like I can be of service and help people. And you know, I'm 56 years old, I started birthday, I forgot, and you know, I could see doing this for decades more. You know, I love what I do. And maybe you know, I don't know that I'll always work seven days a week as much as I work now. But I love what I do. And I would love to continue doing it for as long as I'm healthy and able to help clients tell a better story. And you know, to help the products and services that deserve great marketing, find it find their audience, I can't imagine what else I would rather do, you know, there I have hobbies and interests and friends. But I have time to do that, too. So, I hope I'm still doing this, you know, years down the road.
Shireen Smith: So, who actually hires you from a company? Is it the marketing manager who brings you in?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, it depends. Sometimes it's the board, sometimes it's the CEO, sometimes it's the CMO. So, the CMO, when they bring us in it can be a typical situation might be you've got a CMO who's going out for maternity leave, or a hip replacement or a knee replacement like they need to go out for a few months to for medical reasons, and they want to make sure their job is secure when they come back. Well, you know, in this day and age, if you leave for a month or two months or three months, and your job gets divided between 2, 3, 4 people, you worried Will you even have a job to come back to, and what's going to happen when you're not there. So, you know, I used to be a chief marketing officer, and a lot of people in my firm were generalists as well. So, if we can come in, keep the trains moving, keep the work flowing, and protect that person's job, then they're thrilled because they come back a few months later, and everything's running smoothly, they don't have a backlog of things that they have to catch up on, they can step in and continue and hit the ground running. But we've also been brought in by a board of directors by a CEO, you know, we were hired twice by the virgin group on Richard Branson bought a company here in Boston, that he wanted, he felt the big opportunity to buy the business was to improve their marketing. And that's where he really thought he could add the most value. And so, he brought us in on an interim basis, because he wanted about four months, six months to find the right chief marketing officer. And he didn't want to rush to get somebody in a capacity to do as they say they had devirginized the brand. So, to go from the company that they were to part of the Virgin portfolio, we had to, you know, get the right logo, the right messages, and get all the business cards and the stationery and the website converted. That's not a very sexy or glamorous job. It's just the nuts and bolts of marketing. So, he hired us to come in and take care of those kinds of transitional jobs while he was doing a global search for a great CMO. And then once we got everything transitioned to the virgin brand, he could bring in a rock star CMO to come in and then really take it to the next level. But that person didn't have to do any of the grunt work because we had already taken care of it. So that's a situation where, you know, a more senior person brings us in on an interim basis, because they just don't want you know, it's a different skill set to take care of the nuts and bolts than it is to kind of catapult the brand to the next level. And we can tag team with an existing crew, we can hope hold down the fort and keep the trains moving. So, it just gives companies more flexibility, and more arms and legs, and more bandwidth during periods of growth and transition and maybe acquisition.
Shireen Smith: So presumably you don't employ on your, in your organization, a whole load of people, you've got consultants that you bring in.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: I've got about four dozen independent contractors. We we've formed teams based on what clients need. And so, when people are working, they get paid. And when they're not working. They do. Yeah.
Shireen Smith: Talking of Virgin, I must say that's one of my favorite names, brand names because they've been able to use it across so many different businesses. What's your favorite? If you one of your favorite brands and why?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Oh, my goodness, I don't know if you familiar with the brand Eataly.
Shireen Smith: No.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: E-A-T-A-L-Y. It's a retail food brand. I think it started in Italy. It's basically came to New York City. Now it's in Boston, and it's basically a Food Emporium. And for anyone who's a foodie, it's just magical you walk in, and its sensory overload the sights, the sounds, the smells, and it's everything, Its restaurants, its bars, it's shopping, and it's like food overload and.
Shireen Smith: I might have been there, and everything is around you and you can sit down, and I'll have coffee.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Exactly. You can sit down and have a coffee; you could have a full meal. You can do your shopping, and you can get all the most amazing items from all over the world and it's just quality. It smells good, it tastes good. I think they did a fantastic job of just an immersive brand. You can't be unhappy when you're there. You're just smiling ear to ear and you want to go back like When you leave you think oh my god I have to come back I wish there were so many things I wanted to do that I didn't have time to do so I think I think brands their experiential Yeah, I think that's really where you transcend the product or service and you become part of the part of their life I mean I think those are the brands but I agree with you I think Virgin is a fantastic brand as well.
Shireen Smith: Yeah. So how can people get in touch with you Paige what's the best way for them?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, the two best things are to go to the website its www.mavensandmoguls.com, m-a-v-e-n-s-a-n-d-m-o-g-u-l-s .com or find me on LinkedIn Paige Arnof-Fenn.
Shireen Smith: We'll add that to the show notes for sure.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Yeah, so I think you know with a name like mine hyphenated when you Google me, it really is me. So, you can find me pretty easily.
Shireen Smith: Yeah, that's great. So, did you get hyphenated when you're married, or have you?
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Yeah, what do you call a double barrel in the UK? Yeah.
Shireen Smith: Great, well thank you very much indeed for appearing on the podcast playing
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Well, this has been so much fun Shireen, thank you for having me.
Shireen Smith: Thank you, bye.
Paige Arnof-Fenn: Bye bye.