Joe Glover - The Marketing Meetup Community

brand management brand strategy marketing podcast Mar 10, 2022

Joe Glover: The strategics sort of stuff, coming up with a clear position, clear message, knowing who you're going to go after understanding the needs of the market. All these things are really, really interesting because they're about people just about matching. You know, there's a really bad equation to marketing which I share from time to time, which is, you have a customer with a need, and a company with a product or a solution. And really, all you're trying to do as a marketer is communicate one to the other.

Shireen Smith: Hello, and welcome to the Brand Tuned podcast, which discusses all things brand related, including the essential trademark and IP dimension. I'm your host, Shireen Smith, IP lawyer, Brand Manager, and author of brand today, The New Rules of Branding Strategy and Intellectual property. Before the episode begins, I just want to mention the Brand Ttuned Accreditation course, which is in the pipeline, it will cover how to create a brand strategy, taking account of intellectual property as it arises during the process. brand protection considerations impact the choice of names or other brand identifiers. So to make better branding decisions, register your interest brandtuned.com. The link is in the show notes. So welcome to the Brand Tuned podcast Joe, tell us a bit more about yourself.

Joe Glover: Thank you very much for having me. So my name is Joe Glover. I am now 30 years old, which is a new thing for me, which is Matt and I run a company called the Marketing Meetup, which is a community of some 28,000 Plus marketers around the world. Now, about 77% of those are UK based, the rest are distributed from Macedonia to America. And we come together to learn about marketing, connect with other marketers, and do it in a way which feels kind and lovely. And safe and inclusive, we come together. Because we love marketing, we want to get better at it. We're curious, open minded people. But we sort of run as a bit of a counter blast to folks who sort of feel that we need to be judged by our job titles or our budgets, we come together because we want to get better. And that feels like the right thing to do. So all in all, it's a really lovely experience. And I mean that in the truest sense of the word. I'm very, very lucky. If I was to introduce myself, I would say I'm the luckiest man in the world. So that's me.

Shireen Smith: So, to go back to 2016, when you decided to set up a marketing meetup. I mean, there were plenty of marketing meetup groups on places like a meetup. So to what do you attribute your success? Initially, it was just in Cambridge. Tell me a bit about that.

Joe Glover: I guess I would say naivety ignorance, and elbow grease, probably. But I think if we're given the serious answer, then it's probably not so much what we do, but how we do it. And as you rightly pointed out, there's plenty of places where marketers can learn, there's plenty of places where marketers can meet each other. But actually, where you combine both of those things, and you create an environment, which feels all the words that I used earlier. That's that's the difference. That's that's the thing that matters. It matters because there are marketers, and there are human beings who don't fit into the traditional mold of this corporate agenda and trying to fit into networking scenarios that don't feel natural. So we just provided something that felt a little bit different. And felt very human. And I think that that's the reason for the main, the main reason for success. It's not what we've done is how we've done it. And that comes through in everything we've ever sort of put out there, whether it's the the in person events, the online events, or even just stuff down to our email tone. All of these things matter. Because every one of those reinforce that which really there for people because we want to be we want to make it a nice experience. I'm not sure that everyone thinks about things, those ways that because it's just me, and one part time employee and one director, we're not we're not driven by a massive commercial agenda. We're genuinely there to help. And over the course of time, then we found that the money's kind of followed as well, which means that we can continue to do it. But yeah, really, the success is just about really caring about people and providing that environment where they feel welcome.

Shireen Smith: Yeah, I mean, I've done plenty of sort of networking sorted out now. Working events in my time, but I never then went on to think this could be something bigger. So what made you think that? You know, apart from just providing a networking event, but this could be something else? Did you start with that intention?

Joe Glover: No, absolutely not. So after the first event, my mission was achieved, you know, I'd met other marketers or learned about marketing, and I had a lovely time doing it. And in fact, I continued doing it in Cambridge over the course of six to eight months without any sort of like expansion or anything like that. It was only when folks were coming up to me over the course of time and saying, Hey, I've driven from Birmingham to come to this event in Cambridge, to go to a canteen, you know, that I sort of like, that's interesting. Combine that with other folks who are coming up to me and saying that I've come to this event from Bedford and actually, I'd love to run an event, closer to my house, you know, and actually, I'm quite happy to do it myself with your blessing, you know, just under our banner. And so that's how we grew over the course of time, it was never set out to be this man. It's my journey that it's been, it's all been very organic, where people sort of recognize that there is something in the, I want to say there's something in the brand, you know, but there wasn't really brand early on, there's just something in in how we've chosen to do things that people resonate with, and want to do more of. So yeah, there was never a big ambition. And in fact, that's something that I've wrestled with over the course of time as well because when you start a community, like I have, then I think you start in a place of like, look, I just want to give, I want to give, give, give, give, and when folks walk up to you and sort of say, hey, you know, I'd like to give you a bit of money, and can I put my logo on it and stuff like that you like, oh, no, you know, I don't want your money. But then, of course, there's practicalities to these things. And for the longest time, I thought that it had to be a pure experience free of commercialism. And actually, when we're speaking about community, then there's a practical side to it, which is that it's really important that we do have some financial stuff in there too. And for that reason, it's great to seek out partners who sort of match those ambitions and match that sort of that way of thinking. And even that element of it, the financial element of it has been entirely enjoyable because of the folks who contribute to that part of the world as well.

Shireen Smith: So at what point did you actually create the brand, you know, in terms of thinking that it's about kindness and being lovely? When did that come about, and your logo and all that.

Joe Glover: Well the first logo was made in paint, in Microsoft Paint, it was a square with some words in it. And that was it, you know, there was nothing fancy about it. And we had that family off, but that was about it. The rest. It kind of comes in two stages. So the foundation of the group was very much about that humanity and coming together and listening, overselling. And that was clear from the off, you know, that was the group that I wanted to attend. So that's the language I put around the event. And therefore, it attracted folks who were attracted to that language. We based the, the meetup on meetup.com, initially, as well. So we got that initial traction through that platform. However, there was also like an organic evolution over the course of time. So we use three words to describe how folks should behave marketing mix of events, which is listen, say hello, and be positively lovely. And we reinforce those things all the time. And those three sort of phrases only came into being maybe six, seven months into the journey, which means to say that it was like, it was just a moment that I put something on the slide. And then I was at the front, and I was presenting, and then people just sort of smiled back at me when they saw that those those sort of values were conveyed. And it was in that moment when I was like, ah, you know, maybe I just mentioned that again next month. And then, you know, people sort of came back and like, ah, you know, be positively lovely. You know, that's, that sounds really twee, which it is, but it's also something that stood out. And so two fold answer to your question. The first was that was quite a conscious act to create a group that felt like that, in terms of defining the branding and stuff like that, then that was an iterative process over the course of time. Another example of that is that our present branding, the logos, the look, the feel of the marketing meetup, I think we've only had that for about 14 months. So actually, the marketing meetups been going for nearly six years now. And it was only relatively recently in the scale of that journey that we actually changed to something that looks semi semi professional. Before that, it was still the same old logo that was made in paint. And actually, the rest of it was the most important thing for us was the look, that was the feel of the event, the field of communications. And everything else kind of followed from that point really.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. So with a name, like marketing meetup, you can't really protect us except logo. So, you know, how do you actually control who uses the name? I mean, to the extent that you can, if somebody wants to set up a marketing meetup in another part of the country? You know, why would they come to you? And, you know, tell me, how do you manage that?

Joe Glover: So we've got, we've got a fairly sort of comprehensive. Initially, we call them franchisees, I think, you know, really, they're organizers. We've got a fairly comprehensive organizer manual that exists, I think it's about 4000 words on how to run a marketing, meeting event, logos and sort of language tips and stuff like that. So in terms of getting folks to use the marketing meetup stuff in the right way, then that's how we do it. Also, all of our organizers would have previously been attendees at marketing meetup events as well. So they'll know and they'll know the look and feel of the event, because they've been there, they've experienced it. You're definitely right, in terms of like, it's definitely like the ron seal thing. You know, it's kind of the name is what it says on the tin, sort of thing. And, you know, people come to me from time to time sort of saying, What do you think of this name of this company? And I'm like, I don't know, I called my thing, the most obvious thing in the world. I would say that it's obviously very, very hard to protect on a sort of, like, legal level, but I think we've got the brand awareness now in the community, certainly in the UK, that folks, you know, if someone was to start something called the marketing meetup now, you know, people that, you know, is that that thing? You know, and sort of, you know, sort of feedback that was I think, so I guess we've kind of reached that sort of escape trajectory to a certain extent, certainly in the UK, that it would be weird if someone else was to do it now. But there is a there's an Eastern European company called Marketing Meetup. You know, we coexist perfectly happily, I've never spoken to them. But you know, it's not a problem. 

Shireen Smith: So do you charge your license fee for people to become franchisees? How does it work?

Joe Glover: No, we don't. So this is in the context of pre COVID world. So we had 13 locations around the UK. And then we started in New York, as well, pre COVID. And if we're speaking, like in purely commercial language, which I don't really like to do about the meat of all that often. But if we're speaking in that way, then it was definitely a deliberate strategy that like, we knew we could grow the community quicker if we had more events. And therefore it was in our interest to have more locations. And therefore a barrier to entry of asking people to pay lots of money to represent the master meter wasn't really going to be the way that we did things. 

Secondly, combined in that, you know, I think when you find people you trust, and enjoy the company of and love bouncing ideas off and stuff like that you can't help but be excited to work with them. And so when a bunch of exciting people sort of get in touch and say, hey, I'd love to run an event there I'm like, you know, hell yeah, let's do it. So it's that that was never really an issue about money changing hands on those things, we did offer a profit split. So if local organizers were to run an event that ran profitably off the basis of sponsorship that they gather in their local area, then we would split it, I think it was 70/30 in their favor. Again, you know, the meetups never really been a wonderful exercise in business. It's, it's an exercise in community first and foremost. But the interesting thing about that was most of our organizers were next had next to no interest at all, in being paid for being involved with the community. You know, they of course get benefits of standing in front of a room and sort of saying, you know, hey, I'm Nick, you know, and welcome to the marketing meetup presented by me that's undoubted that you know, they're sort of personal branding would be a good thing. Yeah, financially, nobody was really that bothered. So it was a fairly easy, very human interaction of let's let's do something fun together. Yeah, it was

Shireen Smith: It's a bit reminds me of places like Toastmasters, which have become very international. And I don't think people make a lot of money out of it. But it's just a format for people to learn how to speak in public, I guess what you're doing is a way to learn about marketing.

Joe Glover: Absolutely, they it's very, very similar. You know, I don't know the Toastmasters model in and out, you know, and so I can comment on the similarities or differences, but certainly in terms of the, the spirit of it, then it feels quite similar. And people speak so warmly about Toastmasters as well has helped them move forward and get better. That's, you know, I can't, you know, lie that the money element is not important. But it's not the most important thing. And so, you know, if we're covering our faces, I've got a 11 month old daughter, you know, if I can afford to feed her and heat the house, then that's, that's good. And then the rest of the time, we're focused on helping people.

Shireen Smith: Sure. So it's, you've got sponsors who, who help you to meet your running expenses, presumably, your any staff that you need?

Joe Glover: Yep, yep. So we've got.

Shireen Smith: When did you first get sponsors? 

Joe Glover: Right, from the off? Straighten? Yeah. So the first two sponsors were a company called Brand recruitment and Cambridge marketing college. And the thought that I had going through my head was I'm going to bring a bunch of marketers into a room who wants to speak to a bunch of marketers, and brand recruitment, a marketing recruitment specialist company, and Cambridge Marketing College, do marketing qualifications. So they were to no brainers in the local area to sort of approach. As I said, it wasn't really a massive profit generating exercise in that, I think I needed about 200 pounds to run my first event to put the buffet on because it was always important to have food and drink and stuff like that. And the venue was given to us for free by Red Gate Software. So and in fact, Red Gate Software, mostly sort of like hire a couple of people from the market to meet up off the back of it and stuff. So you know, they're happy. But yeah, straight from the off, we sort of had these relationships with sponsors, initially, to sort of cover the cost of the event. But as the brand recognition grew, then of course, you know, we're getting, you know, actually fitting more sponsors in is, is the problem nowadays, rather than the other way around, which is a really pleasant situation to be in.

Shireen Smith: You're oversubscribed. Yeah.

Joe Glover: Exactly. Yeah. Which, yeah, it's good. It's nice to be in that position.

Shireen Smith: Yeah. People also have a marketing company. Is that right?

Joe Glover: Yeah, well, yeah, on the side, so I do bits and pieces on the side, marketing, consultancy strategy, mostly strategic stuff, I have to say that I don't actually find the tactical implementation of marketing all that interesting, which is a bit of a shock, a shock admission for the podcast, but you know, I find the dialogue around, you know, I 10x to my efforts on my website, and, you know, got a million pounds and an ARR, or something like that, you know, it just doesn't particularly interested me. But the strategic sort of stuff, coming up with a clear position, clear message, knowing who you're going to go after understanding the needs of the market. All these things are really, really interesting, because they're about people just about matching, you know, there's a really bad equation to marketing, which I share from time to time, which is, you have a customer with a need and a company with a product or a solution. And really, all you're trying to do as a marketer is communicate one to the other. And ultimately, the equal sign at the end of it is that there's a human life improved at the end. And so I don't really care about the nuts and bolts all that much. But I do care about the outcome, and the big sort of picture stuff that takes us along that journey. 

And so lovely thing about marketing is that you can apply very similar sort of principles in a range of companies speaking with a flare gas management company the other day, I was applying the same principles as I was to a mental health first aid company, you know, a few weeks later, so it's all very similar processes. Were very different outcomes, of course. But once you got those principles down, then then it's, it's good. But the thing about that is that I think it's very easy along the way to sort of as marketers because we've all did diagnosis strategy and tactics to think that whole world knows that sort of stuff? They don't either everyone sees the tactics as what marketing is. And that's, that's not a revelation re sort of statement. I think that's something that is said a lot in marketing circles. But for this sort of lay person on the street, that's something that they see what marketing is. And that's what they asked for. So actually to sort of come in and sort of say, well, have you understood your customer and what he messages often get sort of bank eyes, and you need to take him on that journey. So that's an exciting thing about doing what we do in sort of like a consultancy basis.

Shireen Smith: So it's really quite difficult to understand the customer. I mean, when you first started, presumably, you were creating it for yourself for people like you. But then how did you get to find out more about who was actually in the audience? Once you've sort of taken off? 

Joe Glover: Yeah, listen, honestly.

Shireen Smith: How do listen, though, because people often are not willing to give time to discuss because your brand doesn't really matter to them, they've got a lot to do. So how do you actually get people to talk to you so you can find out more.

Joe Glover: But it really depends so it depends on the company. So let's take a really morbid example, a funeral parlor, you know, that would that would be an example of a company that people really wouldn't want to sort of spend an awful lot of time speaking to. However, when you go through the process of, you know, engaging a funeral parlor in that sort of situation, then your customers are going to be asking you a bunch of questions. And every time you go through that process, you'll be able to recognize the questions that are being asked, and sort of the the patterns of behavior that are being displayed. And then you can go away, that's really interesting, let's sort of change because actually, our marketing doesn't represent any of these questions that we're, we're sort of getting people to come with us for you know, so let's, let's start this, put an FAQ section on our website, this helps people sort of go through the process and know what's going to be important to them up front and make that process a lot easier. You know, that's a really easy example of like, where you don't need to get like a focus group or, or wherever you're just like, observing, listening to the customer, then over the course of time refining what you're doing. And you know that's the first sort of step, my dogs decided to start snoring in the background. And then, you know, you can do more formal parts of listening. So you can do the focus group, and you can ask the questions. So something that I do in my emails that I send to my community is ask a question every so often. So it can be as something as simple as how are you today, which is, one could argue is a data point to suggest the general feel of the marketing community right now, which could help you tailor your communications in a way that sort of speaks to those people in that headspace? That could be an example of listening a little bit more?

Shireen Smith: Do they actually reply? If you send an email saying, How are you today?

Joe Glover: Yeah, absolutely. At the beginning of code, at the beginning of COVID. We sent an email to our entire database, and just said, Hi. We're all scared right now. And, you know, what, if you need someone to chat to just drop us a message, and we will reply, we had over 200 replies that day. And I went through every one of them and reply to their conversations and stuff like that. People care if you show that you care. You know that people use this horrible language in marketing, which is like, we would love your feedback. Who cares? If people want your feedback, you know, actually, the thing that they want to help is get a better process at the end a better product and improve their life in some way. 

So if you can display that you're going to use that information in a way that is genuinely going to improve their life, or help them through a problem that they're facing right now. Then, all of a sudden, you know, people become more willing, but that's about being far more human with these things. It's, you know, putting this corporate language around, it puts people's barriers up and most of your eye. I think it's a I sort of started this answer by saying listen, and making it a super simple thing, but I genuinely do think it's quite simple. You know, you're listening at every point that you possibly can through the process of engaging with customers as they go through purchasing but then also how they interact with your website. You know, what they're writing in Amazon reviews, what they're replying in your emails, what they're saying to your customer service team, who's sending an angry email to your CEO, you know, whoever maybe these are opportunities to learn. And if we don't take a defensive point of view on these things, and all of a sudden, we can improve so much more. Because we're getting this feedback all of the time, whether we know it or not, a lot of people will throw it away and sort of say, now, you know, so I'm not really interested, if you really listening, you really, really care. 

I'll give one final example because it's already long answer. But on our newsletter, on the newsletter signup page, then we've got a simple type form that sort of sets up straight after people sign up for our newsletter goes on to that page. And we ask one question, which is, how can we make this newsletter, the most amazing experience for you language around that sort of, sort of ballpark, I've got a spreadsheet of like, some 900 responses or something like that, from folks who have told us specifically how we can help them. And they might just be like a line or two, but it gives us a gauge on like, where we should be going for that. So like, there's opportunities throughout everything to listen to. And I think, sort of stepping out of that formal place, sort of saying, we have to listen in this way, she just sort of really being in tune with those informal things is, is really, really important.

Shireen Smith: So do you think a Facebook group is essential for creating community? I mean, to create an environment where people can connect with each other? What else can you do apart from something like Facebook.

Joe Glover: I think, if you take the principles of the Facebook group, I don't think it has to be a Facebook group, it could be a Slack channel, it could be a discord group, it could be a forum, you know, or it could be in person events, I think the important thing for a community to grow is that they need a place where they can communicate with one another and do it in a place which will feel safe. And so you set the the the standard in terms of the environmental values, but then you allow folks to engage with one another in whatever environment it is. I don't think it specifically has to be a Facebook group. So the mini MBA, for example, use LinkedIn.

Shireen Smith: It’s on LinkedIn. 

Joe Glover: Personally, I find the functionality of LinkedIn groups not great, particularly around sort of notifications. Which is a shame, because actually, that was the best example of a LinkedIn group that I've seen. And it was still, it was still okay. You know, it was a good experience, but not an amazing experience, that LinkedIn group. So I still think in terms of best places to go, and Facebook is probably right up there. However, you sort of see in a lot of sort of tech focused groups and a lot of younger demographics, that they're using discord far more regularly to communicate. 

Shireen Smith: Discord, I’ll have a look at that. Then it, obviously there are negative people around and you particularly want people to be kind and lovely. So have you come across situations where you had to deal with people being negative for now? How have you actually managed it?

Joe Glover: Genuinely, and I'm not just saying this, I think I could count on one hand, the amount of bad interactions that I've had over six years of the meetup. And the thing that I attribute that to is sort of going up to up to 11, on the sort of loveliness stuff, so even if people are like, a seven or an eight, then they're already far more lovely than the rest of sort of what you'd expect on a day to day basis. 

So I think there's a, it's a cultural thing, you know, it's in and we see that in workplace cultures as much as we do in community cultures, you have to be very, very specific on the behaviours that you expect people to be. But once you've done that, it's for us, it's been absolutely remarkable, that you tell people to be lovely. And they are. 

The interesting thing is that in those sort of times where you know, those five or six interactions, which haven't been great, they just haven't. They just haven't landed. You know, someone said something negative. And it's not about being mindful, mindlessly optimistic. But we're speaking about being unpleasant here. Yeah. You know, people just ignored it. It's just, you know, it's just been water for duck's back and people that's not right for here. So you know, I'm not gonna interact. And yes, it's that thing about don't feed the troll, you know, and that's exactly what's happened. So while of course, bad things happen. I think the first defense against it is making sure you're culture is really really strong. 

After that point, I would say outside of the marketing meetup because I do a lot of stuff sort of on my own sort of world of things, you know, and they can be two separate entities. And I've had bad interactions from time to time. And again, I've just chosen not to engage, it doesn't mean that they don't hurt, because quite often they do. And they will be the things because I'm a radical over thinker. So I sit and I'll dwell on things, and they will ruin my day. But it's a muscle that you get used to developing. And there's only one example last week, you know, where there's a guy sort of making some funny comments and stuff like that. And like, it was a two second thing to just click into his profile and block him. And, you know, the mechanisms exist. And rather than allowing myself to be drawn into that sort of world and sort of having my day impacted, and being a worst dad, I just sort of thought, yeah, you know, I'm not, I'm not gonna engage, so uhm I think that's probably the answer is if you can just engage, because, yeah, you don't need everyone's approval. That's not what you're there for. 

There is one final example on that, which I appreciate it makes it a long answer. But I remember encountering once on LinkedIn, someone saying that my emails made their toes curl, because of the tone of the email. They weren't, they hadn't tapped me into it. You know, they were just speaking about my work, but not to me. And I can't tell you the amount of pleasure that I derived from that, because it proves to me that we were saying something that was worth saying, because nobody reacts to this sort of gray space. In between, you know, nobody reacts to gray, you know, it's either black or white. And, you know, we've we've gone really, really hard on the loveliness stuff. And if they choose to opt out of that, it means but saying something, but it also means that, of course, there's going to be people who don't agree with that. And that's fine, you know, they can go somewhere else, which isn't lovely.

Shireen Smith: Well, I've got two more questions for you before we finished Joe. One is whether there are any books you recommend for community building. And the other is whether there's any brands you particularly admire for community.

Joe Glover: So the second one is easier to answer. So, HubSpot do a wonderful job of building community. Certainly in terms of building resource, but they bring people together every year for their inbound conference. And that's a great central point where folks have been brought together. And it's radically popular. In a similar vein, Salesforce do something very similar with their Dreamforce conference. Again, it sort of builds this sort of touch point for folks to come and interact with one another.

Shireen Smith: So just one annual conference they have.

Joe Glover: Yeah, however, HubSpot, this really great quick follow up question there. Because HubSpot actually have a series of HubSpot user groups that take place across the world. There's one in Cambridge, for example. Which means that HubSpot users can get together and speak about HubSpot, which is pretty amazing for a b2b SaaS, you know, sort of company that people are that passionate about it, that they're willing to get together. So that's a really good example. People like Harley Davidson, you know, I don't think actually they've done a lot of it, I think quite a lot of that has been quite organic. But you think about the community that's been built around that brand, to the point where people are getting tattoos of the brand, on their, on their bodies, you know, shows the strength of the community that they've built. Another example is like Ironman, you know, people are getting tattoos on their legs left, right and center. Having yeah, having to be completed an Ironman, you know, and all sorts of all sorts of companies. There's one lovely last example, which I'll give, which is a company called journey further, who are a marketing agency. 

Shireen Smith: How do to spell it?

Joe Glover: Journey Further.

Shireen Smith: Journey Further. Yeah.

Joe Glover: And so Journey Further are a well thought of marketing agency up north. However, the thing about marketing agencies is that nobody really wants to speak to them if they don't have to, you know, it's not something you want to interact with. However, journey further have created a book club is run by a girl called Isabel, who was phenomenal and she's passionate and she really cares about books. And over the course of time, the conversation that journey further have is about books, you know, they're not speaking about their clients or their services or their awards, they won. They speak about books, they speak about marketing books and stuff like that. They've built a community of some 5000 people from a marketing around this marketing agency, including brands like Spotify, and, you know, like these amazing, amazing companies. And so they've flipped the narrative on its head, about sort of what you have to do to build a community build, built an agency and advertise it, they've used community, but done it in the truest sense of the word. They don't mention journey further as an agency or that much at all. They speak about books, but you know, from time to time, they'll get someone who's a little bit intrigued about the agency. And that's how they kind of sort of make money off.

Shireen Smith: I must look into them. That's really interesting. Thank you.

Joe Glover: No problem at all. So really, really great example. But I think the most interesting element behind all of that is that the human being in the center of that community is someone who really, really cares about building a community. And the financial commercial success of the back of that is secondary to the community element of it. You asked about books and resources. I haven't read any particularly amazing ones. And the reason for that is that I think a lot of folks try to engineer community to be some sort of funnel based activity, which is like, it's about commercialism first, I think there can be commercialism as part of a community, but it has to be about community first. And for that reason, I've decided that I'm going to write the book. So that's what I'm doing in my spare time. Right now,

Shireen Smith: When you intending to publish, it will be this year.

Joe Glover: So yeah, so it will be coming out. So I guess that's, that's another exclusive I guess. And, you know, that'll be out at some point this year. 

Shireen Smith: Have you got a title for it?

Joe Glover: Yeah. We're playing around. I might, I might keep that one in the back pocket for now. So it'll probably be something as massive as the marketing meetup though, so.

Shireen Smith: Well for a book that's probably a good idea.

Joe Glover: Yeah, you're probably right. Probably right. So yeah, that's, that's they'll be coming out later in the year.

Shireen Smith: Have you read? You know, the guy who set up Zappos and delivering Wow, he died recently. But he written some book about that people mentioned some time. have you read that?

Joe Glover:  No I haven’t. I’d like to check it out. If you could send a link or or or say the name, then I'd be.

Shireen Smith: I don't know the name. But yeah, I'll email it to you.

Joe Glover:  Amazing. Pop it on the show notes or whatever, as well. Well, thank you very much indeed. That's been great to speak with you. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's my first podcast of the year. So it's a pleasure to break off the rust. 

Shireen Smith: If you enjoyed this episode, please do tell a couple of people about it. And sign up to the brand tune newsletter over a brandtuned.com The link is in the show notes. Thank you and bye!